From breaking news to evergreen content, what separates winning SEO strategies from the rest? Louisa Frahm reveals how top media brands capture search demand in real time—and how you can apply the same playbook.
https://page2pod.com - In this episode of the Page 2 Podcast, Jon Clark and Constance Chen sit down with Louisa Frahm, former ESPN SEO Director and Google Trends curator, to break down the evolving world of news SEO, AI-driven search, and audience-first content strategy.
Louisa shares deep insights from her decade-plus experience shaping SEO strategies at major media brands, revealing how to win editorial buy-in, leverage Google Trends for real-time opportunities, and build scalable content systems that thrive in the age of AI Overviews and zero-click search.
From practical newsroom tactics to forward-looking SEO frameworks, this episode is packed with actionable strategies for SEOs, content teams, and media professionals navigating today’s rapidly changing search landscape.
📊 In This Episode
• 🎯 How to turn skeptical editors into SEO allies through training and trust
• 📈 Why “simple is not stupid” is the key to winning with Google Trends
• ⚡ How to use rising queries for real-time content ideation
• 🧠 The power of utility content and question-based SEO strategies
• 🔄 Why content refreshing is critical in the age of AI and zero-click search
• 🏆 Real-world ESPN case studies on evergreen + breaking news strategies
• 🔗 How to build effective internal linking and content hubs
• 🌍 Why SEO is shifting into full audience strategy across platforms
• 🎥 How TikTok, YouTube, and Reddit are reshaping search visibility
• 🔍 The role of EEAT in an AI-driven search ecosystem
This episode delivers a masterclass in modern SEO—blending newsroom experience, AI insights, and real-world strategy into one powerful conversation.
👉 Don’t miss future SEO insights—subscribe to the Page 2 Podcast for expert strategies every week!
💬 What’s your biggest challenge with SEO in today’s AI-driven search landscape? Drop a comment below—we’d love to hear your thoughts!
🛠️ Tools & Resources Mentioned
• Louisa Frahm on Linkedin → https://www.linkedin.com/in/louisa-frahm-67710922/
• Ask a news SEO: Louisa Frahm on Google Trends → https://www.seoforjournalism.com/p/louisa-frahm-espn-news-seo
• TikTok keyword research → https://www.seoforjournalism.com/p/keyword-research-news-seo-tips
Jon Clark (00:00)
There's a version of SEO that still sounds deceptively simple. Write the right headline, rank on Google, collect the traffic. But that version of the internet is disappearing fast. What replaces it is messier, more fragmented, and a lot more human. Louisa Frahm has spent the better part of the last decade inside that shift. She's led SEO strategy at E! Online, Yahoo, TMZ, People, Entertainment Weekly and the LA Times, worked as a Google Trends curator, and most recently served as SEO director at ESPN.
This conversation is also a bit of a retrospective. Louisa recently made the decision to step away from ESPN after building its SEO program essentially from scratch. She's candid about why. After a decade plus of going hard in some of the fastest newsrooms on the internet, she recognized it was time to slow down. My co-host, Constance Chen, joins me for this one. And together we unpack how Louisa turned skeptical editors into SEO allies, how she used Google Trends to surface the questions real people are actually asking,
and the evergreen content system she's built at ESPN. We also get into AI overviews, TikTok search behavior, and why Louisa believes the best SEOs aren't really SEOs anymore. They're audience strategists. I think you're really going to like this one. Louisa has that rare combination of newsroom instincts, platform fluency, and the ability to make complicated ideas feel clear without flattening them. If you learned something new today, take a second to subscribe to the Page 2 Podcast, leave us a rating or review and let us know what resonated. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
All right, let's get into it.
Jon Clark (01:33)
Welcome to episode 113 of the Page 2 Podcast. I'm your host, Jon Clark, and I'm excited to welcome my guest host today, Constance Chen, ⁓ SEO Director of Moving Traffic Media. Today we're joined by one of news SEO’s most credentialed practitioners, former Google Trends curator turned ESPN SEO Director who has shaped search strategy at six major media brands across a decade-plus career. I can already tell this conversation is going to be a fun one. Louisa Frahm, welcome to the show.
Louisa Frahm (01:47)
Wow.
Hello, hello. Wow. I am blushing. That was a very nice introduction. And yes, it's been a wild ride, but a very fulfilling one. So I'm stoked to jump into all of my related nuggets throughout that career.
Jon Clark (02:04)
Hahaha
And friendly disclaimer, first decided to relaunch the podcast, you were one of the first people we reached out to. And we've gone back and forth trying to figure out the right time to get you on. So we're excited get you here.
Louisa Frahm (02:19)
Yeah!
For sure, it's
a privilege to be here, thank you.
Jon Clark (02:26)
You sort of had this recent transition away from ESPN. You had a great post on LinkedIn about that. Anything you want to share about that transition, ⁓ sort of how that career trajectory is changing?
Louisa Frahm (02:35)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, first off, this was a monumental chapter of my career I had at ESPN. I really feel in many ways, and I did say it in that post, but I meant it. whole life was kind of building to this. I come from a family where we're not religious, but the closest thing is sports. And this really, in many ways, just felt like reaching the mountaintop of that. And I had worked in news SEO at many different publishers
Jon Clark (02:53)
Ha
Louisa Frahm (03:01)
where I had kind of honed this skill set and then this was the ultimate toolkit to work with. So I treated it extremely seriously. I definitely came from that sort of personal background where a lot of the time it didn't feel like work because I knew like I would be watching this game anyways. I would be tuned into whatever it was anyways. So it was an incredible so many different aspects. think
what ended up kind of bringing on the transition was just realizing, and this is good for anyone to know who gets into news SEO and is in the world that I've been in, very fast paced. I've been going very hard for over a decade at it. I've been incredibly proud of what I've accomplished. But I think I turned 35 over the summer and there was a certain part of that that felt a little bit heavier maybe than expected. And it's always good for anyone who works in news to really pay attention to those signals.
And if your body is kind of telling you like, hey, this is great work that you're doing, but maybe something needs to shift, whether that's in your personal life or any other aspects of what's going on, you should listen because life is short. And I did feel like I had certain aspects of my personal life that I needed to tend And yeah, unfortunately, I couldn't continue with ESPN, but I also knew that it was the right time. And the biggest thing for me that I was so proud of with this
role that I was in was that I was, you know, I came in, starting something from scratch, which is always a bit intimidating. I, you know, really put in my full 120 % effort to get it to a place where I, you know, could feel really proud of what the legacy was and, you know, see it take off and shine in the hands of, you know, my team, you know, who will continue to do great work. So that, that like final product really made me feel like it was okay to make this transition because we had
really put in the effort to create a foundation that would be lasting. And I'm so excited to see what my team does with it in the future. And I'll always be a lifelong fan of ESPN. So it all added up to the right thing.
Jon Clark (05:02)
I love that.
Constance (05:02)
And I
mean, You have such an extensive background in news SEO and
And I'm sure many SEOs who work in media tend to struggle with getting editorial buy-in. I'm sure you've experienced this. You know you run into all kinds of pushback, whether it's because editors or writers or the team just wants to maintain their integrity of a voice or editorial style. They just want to stay away from certain language and such. But I'm curious to know from your long experience in working in the newsroom,
especially in these high pressure environments, how do you go about turning a very skeptical editor into like an SEO ally? And what are some of those exercises you use to get that buy in?
Louisa Frahm (05:47)
I love this question because it comes up often and I'm always very proud to give the same answer to start in the same You really need to start with a clean slate and any newsroom that you come into. Now that I've been at, you I've had the privilege of working for so many different brands that I respect and admire. You're always going to come in kind of inheriting some other stuff, right? Because no newsroom is like, well, unless, you know, you're truly starting with like a startup. But I'm saying a lot of, I've worked in enterprise newsrooms.
There are well established best practices, they could have had consultants who had come in and given different types of guidance in the past. What I've found works the best is really trying to clean that slate right away and just make sure that you put training at the forefront you especially start giving any kind of guidance or demands, which I never recommend, by the way, just as an approach. And in that process, I would say,
what you should also couple with that is respect, first and foremost. We come from very different worlds in news SEO when we're working with black and white journalists. And then you're coming from this like what can oftentimes feel kind of foreign news SEO, you know, technical sort of, you know, methodology. So I always lead with respect. I want the folks that I work with to know, even though we come from different worlds, I have, you know, immense appreciation for what you do.
And also with the training comes right out the gate. I'm not trying to be a foreign body. I'm trying to get more eyeballs on your content. go back to this from my very start in SEO actually. I was at an agency and it's called WPromote. It's fantastic. It's in Los Angeles. Shout out to WPromote. had a, I had multiple mentors there who were fantastic to me, but
one of them in particular, I still shout him out all the time and maybe it embarrasses him, but his name was Matt Souza and he left a really like significant imprint on me because when I was first starting out in SEO, it definitely was overwhelming. It was like, my God, what do I make of this? Like I'm not like naturally a technical person. So it was a lot to take on at first. And what I loved about Matt was that his whole approach was I know this might seem technical, let me break it down into simple and easy to understand terms,
Jon Clark (07:32)
Thank
Louisa Frahm (07:55)
let me demystify it. And he always had an aura of being extremely knowledgeable, but being very approachable. And I always give him credit for that because that was at a very important phase of my career, I was just starting out. And when I saw it, I was like, that's what I want to be. Like, I want to emulate that. I want to be someone that people can, like, you know, wrap their arms around in terms of what I'm saying. And obviously, we have some incredibly brilliant minds in the world of SEO, and I have immense respect for them.
I just knew that my path, especially once I got into newsrooms, was going to be really breaking things down into simple, easy to understand terms. So that goes back to your question of training and where it starts, I think, is creating a language that people can understand, right? And that helps to make you less of a foreign body and more something that's new, maybe exciting, something that could actually benefit newsrooms and the goals that they're trying to achieve. So definitely stress that.
You need to kind of, you know, go after whatever that previous, you know, set of best practices was. really important to get to the bottom of it. Like what confused you in the past? Like what did you hear? You can't skirt around that. That's the only way that you're going to truly clear the slate. So ask those questions. Go after answers because that's what's going to allow you to set a better foundation and more efficient best practices moving forward. So I would say being really proactive about that makes a huge difference.
then doing actual training sessions, obviously. So once you've kind of like had some of those initial conversations, you figure out where the pain points were, you figure out where some of the gray areas are doing, you know, those formal training sessions, you know, with the right decks, like covering the right themes, going to be, you know, crucial, right? And just like having an actual deliverable that people can go back to again and again. You know, when I was at ESPN, we had both the training deck, but we also had like a one page cheat sheet. And people really liked that where it's like, here's a quick hit,
Jon Clark (09:43)
Mm-hmm.
Louisa Frahm (09:45)
sort of list of the different elements that you should be aware of. Another really big thing I would push for with training, because can you tell I like training? I love training. I think it's a really critical part of making any newsroom, SEO strategy work. But making sure that folks know training never really ends. I think it's a consistent thing. And I say that for myself. I say that for the people I work with. I say that for everybody who's out there. We should always be trying to learn from one another. So in any newsroom, I would highly recommend
having some sort of central communication channel. So whether that's Slack or Teams, whatever it might be for your particular group, encouraging the writers and the journalists that you work with to flag their stories in there, have that regular exchange of information, be providing that guidance because one of the easiest ways to kind of like drop off in training and then maybe get back into a gray area is to lose some of that regular communication. So really encourage that. And then also, once you've started
giving enough suggestions, you feel like you're getting into a flow with something. I am absolutely, I I literally was a cheerleader when I was in high school, but I'm kind of known as a cheerleader and I hope so in the SEO industry. Any person I've worked with in a newsroom could tell you I'm a big believer in receipts. So I always tell any of my team members and I do this myself once you've given enough suggestions, go the extra mile and really look up
Jon Clark (10:44)
You
Louisa Frahm (11:03)
whatever that search term was that you were targeting with that guidance that you gave. If there are those positive results, take a screenshot, I'm all about receipts, and share that with that editor. So then you're really reinforcing the work that we just did made this kind of an impact, whether that's like looking at your internal analytics and seeing a certain number that you like, or seeing an AI overview that you captured, seeing something in top stories.
You really want to pass on that evidence because that's what can reinforce the investment and make them think, hey, like this actually is something that's really benefiting the objective that I had. Let's keep working together. I could talk all day about it, but those would be some of my favorite things about training and starting brand new.
Jon Clark (11:39)
I think the receipts are,
I think the receipt comment is just so underrated. I feel like that simple screenshot isn't talked about enough. It's so valuable.
Louisa Frahm (11:44)
Yeah, don't sleep on your seat.
Yeah, I mean, the one thing I will say, it clogs up my desktop to no end. Like I have so many, so many receipts on my desktop, but if it makes my computer run a little bit slower, it's okay, I'll take it.
Jon Clark (11:59)
Very good.
Louisa Frahm (12:00)
Yeah, so I love it.
Jon Clark (12:02)
So I wanted to jump to Google Trends maybe. And you have sort of insider's view into Google Trends, or at least you did at one So maybe take us through, you had a comment, like the sphere of questions was something that I came across, sort of the who, what, why, how queries. And to really focus on that when you're looking at sort of Google Trends data, can you
take us into that a little bit more. Like explain how you would use Google Trends to get down to that level of insight.
Louisa Frahm (12:29)
Absolutely. Yeah. So, I was really fortunate to work for Google Trends actually right before I was at ESPN and work on the Trends curator team and see how things kind of work behind the curtain, which was really valuable. even before that, you know, I always tell people I'm not a hashtag ad for them. They have just really helped me in my career from the very beginning. Even when I was at my agency, they were extremely beneficial. And what I really like about Google Trends and why I would...
you know, pick it above like any other tool that's out there when it comes to news SEO specifically is just how granular and timely it can get in very, very tight windows. So when you're working in like breaking news specifically, love the past hour filter in Google trends because you can literally look up something that's just happening in the separate, you know, kind of keyword search. And then the money for me, really, even though there is value in both top queries and rising queries,
I really find Google Trends to shine. I mean, it obviously shines in a lot of different ways, but the rising queries are excellent for content ideation. So you had asked about how do you surface the questions? How do you find these topics that you could jump on? really love doing those standalone searches with, if it is something that's a true breaking news window, like past hour, past four hours, and then going down into rising queries. And that's where those questions will surface. You can just go through and kind of scrape them
and be able to see, Hey, is there something here that would directly cater to my audience? So absolutely even in that. And then now in the more real time section of Google Trends, the Trending Now section, that does the work for you. At my team at ESPN, we were providing daily reports on twice a day, actually, just to show people what are the topics that people care about most in the morning and then also in the afternoon.
So if you click into those individual modules, that's where you can also see questions being also really like the fact that Google Trends, again, and kind of eliminating some of the grunt work, homepages for different topics. That'll pop up on its general homepage. But if there's something like an election going on, or maybe the Oscars or the Super Bowl, they'll do standalone pages, the Olympics.
And that's where you can also pull questions and you know that they're being curated by their in-house experts. Highly recommend signing up for their daily newsletter. Same sort of thing. That's where you got it your inbox Monday through Friday. And you'll get those questions. It's curated around what are the biggest topics of that day. then that also allows you to directly transfer whatever that question is over into a piece of content.
say this all the time and it's funny. I don't know when it became my mantra, but then I started having people quote it back at me. I was like, this must work or something. But simple is not stupid. And I really believe in that. And that's why I've championed utility content my entire career. And I think it goes back to some of my roots I was discussing of like, I had a great mentor in the very beginning who really
taught me that, that like, hey, if you talk to people in terms that they can understand, you will make an impact. Like you will build relationships and get to the goals that you're trying to achieve. So I'm just a big believer in questions for that reason. Cause a lot of the time in SEO, we do talk about the fact that we have like limited character count, right? Like we only have so much space where we can convey what we want to say in a headline. But the amazing part about questions is that it's kind of like a loophole for that because most of the time you have to avoid
Jon Clark (15:36)
All right.
Louisa Frahm (15:46)
conversational phrases or things like if you're really thinking about just a straightforward SEO headline like 'here are the' doesn't contribute anything but questions are really an exception to that because think of how often people search with a question. So I really love using Google Trends to directly pinpoint what are those questions then you can construct your headlines around that. Google Trends in the same way is also really helpful whenever you're doing bigger guides
around something and you want to, you're maybe beyond just the headline, but you want to target your sub headlines around certain things. So that's another really effective way to use questions within like a bigger guide is making the sub headlines questions. That particular, you know, side of Google trends can also be really helpful. And then also when it comes to Google trends, I was going over the breaking news side of it and how you can do it in those tight windows. I also really like seeing on more of like an evergreen point of view. So maybe even like the past five years
or since 2004, which is technically like the all time view, what are questions that pop up every single year, year over year, You know, evergreen content, when you know, handled appropriately can still have a place within your brand, right? You just need to make sure that you're refreshing it appropriately. So I also like, you know, kind of pinpointing those types of themes too, where I know that my audience will come back to this
year after year. Like a good example of that right now, you know, in sports would be like, I can guarantee you this week, because I just saw it again, people are searching for when are, you know, March Madness brackets released, like people are looking for that right now. So, you know, it's always important to just balance the breaking news side of things. What are the breakout questions that people have with those evergreen kind of queries that can drive consistent traffic over time?
Constance (17:21)
I love that you have so many different ways for how to use Google Trends. I mean, you have, you're one of those rare cases where as an SEO professional, you got to be on the inside at Google and kind of be inside the belly of the beast in some degree. But what's something about Google Trends and how it's engineered that you think would genuinely surprise people in our field.
Louisa Frahm (17:26)
yeah, I could talk all day.
Jon Clark (17:28)
Ha ha.
That's right.
Louisa Frahm (17:38)
It's very cool.
Let's see, in terms of like a surprise, I mean, I guess I would just go back to, you know, I was saying about, and I know I already said it, but I would just reinforce it. I think sometimes people overcomplicate like things that shouldn't be overcomplicated, you know? And that is something that like so many news SEOs I know run into where, you know, again, it's part of the delicate dance and making sure that you really maintain those relationships, right? And that respect with
the more traditional editorial side and what you're trying to do on the SEO side. Because sometimes with more traditional editors, it might be a thing of like, oh, I don't want to give it all away. People, you could hear it sometimes, that that's too simple. That's too simple to do. And that's where I would really go back to the magic of Google Trends. And I would tell people to not sleep on it, right? Is that you will see simple things in there,
Jon Clark (18:28)
Mm-hmm.
Louisa Frahm (18:39)
dismiss them. And obviously this is on a scale for your newsroom. And I would say that to anybody, right? Like we all know it all exists having worked in multiple newsrooms where it's like, we know kind of what the line is and like what we would cover above the line versus maybe stay away from. But that is one thing that I would really say about Google Trends is sometimes you might be thinking like, I need something that's like very explosive or like something that's like outside the box. But simple is not stupid. And I really believe in that. And especially if like you're seeing something pop up like
again and again and again in different searches, you shouldn't be ignoring that. And I think sometimes that debate has come up in newsrooms where I've worked in where it's like, you know, is that too simple for us? And I would encourage anyone who's like looking at Google Trends to really take a close eye at those types of examples, because like truly, I mean, that is why like utility content exists. And like if that many people are searching for it and the data backs it up and you're seeing it again and again and again.
Don't try to overcomplicate that or like, and again, all within reason, it's subjective, but talk yourself out of something where like, that the interest is clearly there, you know? So that's one thing that I would definitely say about like Google Trends is, you know, and obviously it's great to see the ones that are like more unique kind of searches and you maybe didn't expect it, but don't sleep on things that keep popping up that may seem more simple in nature because
Even if it's not going to be its own standalone piece, that could also be good ground for a subheadline within a bigger guide. There's always some way that you can apply it. that would be one big thing that would come to mind of just the data that you see in there. There are many hidden aspects to Google Trends that I really like. But one that I love, if you're in more local news, because now I've been on more of a big publisher sort of environment. But when I was at the LA Times,
I really loved using the regional aspect of the tool where you could actually like, I'll give you a great example, because I survived working at the LA Times during the pandemic, was two and a half very, very eventful years. And I was the only SEO for the whole newsroom. So I did a lot of work with Google Trends. And I'll give you an example of, you know, there, obviously, we were very, very focused on COVID and every single component of that pandemic. But vaccines were a very buzzy topic, right? And the searches that would go on
Jon Clark (20:26)
Hmm.
Thank you.
Thank
Louisa Frahm (20:51)
for vaccines in Los Angeles County were very different from Orange County, for example, right? So I love the regional tool because that's where you can actually like look up a standalone search and really narrow the insights that you're getting down into that sort of granular format of like, hey, if I'm going to target this particular population, I could skew coverage this way. If I'm gonna target this population, I might wanna angle it slightly differently.
So I really do love that particular part of it too. There are so many other things I could mention, but those are just like two things that kind of come off the top of my head.
Jon Clark (21:22)
Thank
Well, maybe one thing. So I don't know if you use any plugins that sort of sit on top of Google Trends. So for example, one of my favorites is Glimpse. It sort of repositions and reorganizes data a little bit. Are there any others that you would recommend? Or I don't know, maybe it's a feature from one of these that you would.
Louisa Frahm (21:40)
You know, Glimpse is my main one that I use.
Yeah, so you already mentioned the main one that I use. I do like getting a little bit more granular with it. Yeah, and I mean, I use it for the same exact reason that you had brought So, you know, just getting that little bit of extra insight, I think is helpful. I would go back to, you know, kind of what I said about Google Trends is that, you know, the more you play with it, I feel like, you know, we say this in the SEO industry sometimes, right? It's like tools are fantastic, absolutely, but you should feel like
they aren't complicating your life. They should be like making things easier, ideally. And I think what I found over the in working with Google Trends is I do like Glimpse and I have that on my profile and I use that regularly. But other things have maybe like over complicated the process a little bit when in the moment I'm so used to and kind of engineered to just rely on the platform itself. So Glimpse is fantastic and I would recommend that people add that.
Jon Clark (22:35)
You did reference refreshing content. So I wanted to dig in there a little bit because I feel like in, in, this age, well, it's super important for news, but also now in the age of LLMs where we're seeing basically them defer to content that is less than 12 months old, some cases, 13 weeks. It seems like such more important for everybody to be focused on, and
Louisa Frahm (22:38)
Yeah, of course. Big one, yeah.
Totally.
Jon Clark (23:00)
I've heard you reference like reoptimization as sort of a minute by minute practice, which I think is probably more geared toward a newsroom, but would love to get your thoughts on, you know, how you approach refreshing a piece of content, whether it is a breaking news piece or maybe even something that's evergreen, which is probably more applicable to, you know, larger groups.
Louisa Frahm (23:18)
Absolutely. So this has become really like a cornerstone of, you know, the content initiative that I was running at ESPN over the last like two and a half years. That's why, like, again, I feel so fortunate for what this most recent chapter was. It gave me resources that I didn't previously have in terms of, you know, having a freelance writer and being able to really invest in an SEO content operation. And I know that that's not to be taken lightly. It was a huge privilege to have that. And it allowed me to experiment
a lot with what works, what doesn't, what is most efficient, especially when it came to news. And what I found with that, and I'm happy to go into both the breaking news side of updates, but also the evergreen side, is that absolutely freshness matters. So I'll start with, in the industry, I know we've all read these articles, there's been a lot of this talk of SEO is dead, SEO is dead. And I have my friends and my family who send me this, and they're like, are you still out of a job? Do you still have a job?
So yes, like these things come up all the time. I firmly believe that SEO is not dead. I hope to still be employed and pursuing this profession. But off of that, I would say that certain principles and practices that previously worked have been fading into the background a little bit or aren't as effective in this era that we're going through, right? This giant evolution that SEO is going through, because that's what I think is happening with AI.
And off of that, to touch on what you had mentioned, AI loves freshness. Like it does. I mean, it's a huge, huge element that you have to consider if you want to be ranking in those modules that are already very small, right? You have to be factoring that in. So off of that, I would go back to, this strategy that I was running and that I was of, it's kind of a multi-step process of First off,
you know, the brainstorming process is obviously very important, trend forecasting. So that's more on the evergreen side, but you want to be predicting where your audience is going to go, right? And that's really going to vary depending on what your individual newsroom is, what your beats are, like knowing your audience. I say this constantly and I'll say it again. I truly believe no matter how crazy our industry gets, if you prioritize your audience needs
you can't go wrong, right? You always just want to keep them at the center of the work that you're doing. And that's something I really pride myself on. And again, keeping it simple and straightforward, like what do they need in that moment? Supply it. So that is one part of it is trend forecasting and creating that's more on the evergreen side, but those explainers where you're getting ahead of it, right? So this plays into the update later, because ideally, you know, just due to bandwidth issues that newsrooms will have, right?
Jon Clark (25:30)
Good.
Louisa Frahm (25:54)
You don't want to be like creating all of your explainers on the fly where it's like, okay, I'm just kind of waiting around. And then it's like this big news happened, Oh my God, then you have to do it. Those moments will come up. Don't get me wrong. And it's actually kind of exciting. I've been in that position many times. And so I was like, Oh my goodness, like what's going on? But ideally, as much as you can predict where the trend is going, that is going to ease the update process later.
Jon Clark (26:00)
.
Louisa Frahm (26:15)
I'll give you a good example of that, like from my time at ESPN. I was very proud of this one because it just showed like why this formula can work. So again, being a big sports fan, you know, you just know certain tentpoles that when there's related breaking news, that particular question is going to trend. And when we were first setting up this initiative, we thought of those you can call them like low hanging fruit, but it was things were like, hey, we know that this is reliable based off of the way the news cycle has behaved in the past. And a few of those that we did on football,
obviously, king, you know, in the US. So we really targeted football. But we had, you know, the longest tenured football coaches and NFL coaches of all time. And then we also had the winningest in terms of championships, like who has won the most championships on both the college football and the NFL side. We had these posts, we created them. There wasn't breaking news technically at the time when they were going up. It was just, hey, we want to have these. We'll get them sourced in the correct way. And they're ready. They're on reserve.
And then I love this. It just really proved why this content still is a place. There was a 48-hour window where Nick Saban left Alabama, and then Bill Belichick was like, hold my beer, I'm also going to leave the Patriots. And it was crazy. It was like bananas. It was like, Oh my god, this is a bonanza for our explainer content. But it really shows what you're asking, Jon, because it's like we had these posts. We did not have to completely work up these posts. They were done. They were largely like,
Jon Clark (27:19)
Thank
Yeah.
Louisa Frahm (27:40)
good to exist the way that they were. All we had to do was go in, refresh those individual sections on those legends that were in the news, and then recirculate them. Because that's really the key. The second part of updating is that you're updating it, getting it that fresh information that people need, but then you're recirculating it. So to go into a little bit more detail on how to make updates count in news, you want to be thinking, because this really goes to the bigger industry side of this, right?
Jon Clark (28:08)
Right.
Louisa Frahm (28:08)
Going
back to what no longer works in SEO, right? You know, now we know that search performance because of AI overviews really isn't defined and it isn't a be all end all with the first page of Google. You can't view it that way. That just doesn't work anymore because we know how volatile it is and there is no brand that can just rely on that alone. So it goes hand in hand with the update process. You want to be really aware of what content do I already have when that breaking news hits.
How can I refresh it? How can I give it the information that it needs? And then recirculation is the very close next step after that. So this is going to really vary depending on what your brand is. that could be, OK, I created this off of a search trigger. I'm going to do everything I can to make it pop on Google AI Overviews. But then I might recirculate it via my app, via a newsletter, via social media channels.
Jon Clark (28:44)
Okay.
Louisa Frahm (28:59)
If it makes sense, create an accompanying video that might be able to pop on YouTube, like literally flooding the zone in the channels that make the most sense. Because now, and this is way I've been putting it to people, I think it's time that SEO strategists are not just SEO people anymore, we're audience people. And we have to be thinking bigger because of this.
And I do like to look at it as an exciting challenge. I'm just an eternal optimist. So I'm like, I'm still going to do things that can potentially pop there, but I'm not going to stop there. I need to think. And that really plays into the update process. Because when that related breaking news happens, you need to be updating, but then following that up quite quickly with recirculation an effective way. And then I have to mention, that was off of the Evergreen strategy, which I think is really smart is when you're trend forecasting.
But obviously, you're also going to have those breaking news windows where it's just like, hey, this is what my team did all the time. It's what I would recommend. I mean, you're balancing the two. So you're trying to forecast as much as you can, get that content already up and ready to go. But then you're also going to have those fun moments where it's like, we didn't see this coming. We're going to react to it. One of my favorite moments that was like that during my time at ESPN was Rory McIlroy at the Masters.
Jon Clark (29:51)
Right, yeah.
Louisa Frahm (30:16)
We didn't necessarily see that he was going to get a career grand slam at that event. And then once we saw that that was starting to trend because he was getting closer and closer to that milestone, we did a breakout explainer on that. And then that's where you still are trend forecasting just in a tighter window. You're like, hey, I think he really might do this. And then he did eventually accomplish it. We had that corresponding piece of content and we were able to really give the people what they wanted in that window.
And the other great part about it is that in the future, because hopefully there will be other golfers that will get a career grand slam, we will already have that piece of content. So then it all goes back to the beginning. And it's like that becomes an evergreen piece of content that you then can loop into the bigger update process. So yeah, I can't stress enough just through testing this really extensively over the last two and a half years, the updates make a giant difference. One other good example of this that I would bring up would be if you're dealing with something where it's like a longer
event cycle where you can continuously update and refresh something that's going to really benefit you. One of my favorite examples of that that I did at ESPN was, you again, you're seeing where the trend is going to go. It's a pretty simple thing to start with. Which NBA teams have never won a championship? That's just a question that people have. We created that article. It was not related to breaking news at the time, but then we were fortunate and unfortunate for them because they didn't end up finishing it. But
⁓ The Pacers had an incredible run last season and they had never won a championship, so everyone was consistently searching for that as they advanced further and further and further. We updated that article on a regular basis. Another thing that I would bring up, because you had asked about like update best practices would be when you're updating these pieces. Yes, you want to go in and add new information, but also make sure you're adding in fresh links, right? So every single time they would advance to another stage, it would be
here is the link out to the latest news that we have on this. Like we're providing that extra context and that backend sort of link juice. So we would do that consistently and we rode that throughout like the entire postseason, you know, until unfortunately they didn't, you know, ultimately secure it. But it was incredible to hold on to that AI overview placement off of that, you know, and they were definitely acknowledging the fact that like we were going in and making sure it was as fresh as possible. So yeah, it's a process.
Constance (32:36)
I'm back to your comment about SEO specialists no longer just specializing in SEO, but really focusing on your audience. I think it's a really great segue into, you know, how we've heard about how social media and search has evolved quite a bit. We've seen how, yeah, we've seen how TikTok has now become the search engine for some users. And so, so if you had to design a strategy that was starting from TikTok and not from Google, how would you change the way that you plan and choose topics or
Louisa Frahm (32:40)
Right? Right.
100 %
Constance (33:06)
the different creative formats or your on-page structure.
Louisa Frahm (33:10)
Well, I love the fact that you brought this up because I think like where I would take that question would be just the overall discussion of multimodal search and what that means. Right. I think it's really important to include it in any kind of a discussion like this, because that is why we have to think of, you know, TikTok in a different way, YouTube in a different way, Reddit in a different way, because we bring it back to the source, right? What do Google search results look like these days? They look like this
insane amalgamation of like, you know, you can see a Reddit result leading a knowledge panel up at the top. Same thing with YouTube, you might see that. It obviously, you know, it makes sense when they have actual like partnerships with Google that that happens more often. But TikTok would play into it in that same sort of way, you know, you know, now the feed that you see of different featured things and search results is so much more diverse than it used to be.
that's why like another big thing that I would really stress to anyone who works in like news SEO and I'm glad you brought up the audience thing again because it's so important is going back to our conversation around like what previously worked but now isn't quite as you know applicable. I think for a while and having been in this industry as long as I have you know SEO is working with other departments whether that be like social or newsletters or whatever it might be it was never that like there was any sort of like negativity, but I think it may have come off as
this is optional, right? It's like, OK, like we're doing our thing over here, you're doing your thing over here, we're supportive of each other, but we're kind of in our own silos, right? And it's like, I'm going to do my thing over here, you're going to do your thing and maybe occasionally we'll mesh. Your TikTok question makes me think of this though, because this is why that no longer can exist. With the challenges that we have on the first page of Google, we have to be creating and recirculating content
anywhere and everywhere that our readers are. And if our readers are on TikTok, we need to be creating content that connects with those search themes on that channel. If they're on YouTube, we need to do the same thing. If they're on Reddit, we need to do the same thing. It's thinking so much bigger. So that's really like square one when you were saying like coming up with a strategy around it. I would say that that applies to TikTok or any other platform that's out there is any news SEO should be setting up those collaborative,
you know, meetings with those other departments and making it clear this is no longer optional the way that it once was. This is a necessity because here are, and I would probably, let's go back to receipts. I would probably come ready with like receipts of showing and really explaining to folks and going back to training. Here are examples of how, you know, your content that you're creating for YouTube or for Reddit or for TikTok, whatever it might be, this is in my search results. So here is the direct connection between us,
and then that's where, you know, just to bring it all together. Again, this would apply to TikTok or any other platform we're discussing. You're finding that shared ground, so you're not duplicating efforts. You're ideally creating content for all of those platforms that can be very complimentary. And that's where you're maximizing your brand awareness at every corner, right? That's what's really important. We can't exist in silos anymore. And I would really stress that, like the best newsrooms are really thinking about that right now,
another big thing that's changing with the rise of zero click search and AI overviews and declining click through rates and everything like that, is that the way that we define search performance is shifting. I do my best to not become too scared or to run away from that, but instead you have to pivot your perspective. That it might not, and I know this from working in newsrooms,
obviously page views, uniques, like all of these things are still gonna be important. They're not at all out of the conversation, but overall brand visibility is much more important now, right? So whether that's with like an AI overview where, you know, okay, maybe you're not necessarily getting the click, but if you're in that AI overview often enough, you can be, you know, driving... obviously just overall brand visibility helps you're there. I also believe like psychologically when your
readers, your fans see you in that module often enough that fosters trust that breed that kind of breeds into your EEAT over time. I would definitely, you know, push that in this era, we need to be like creating maximum exposure every opportunity that we can get. So where I would start square one with creating a strategy, whether that be like
for TikTok or for YouTube, just like a cross platform search strategy would be getting everybody in the same room. And then a big part of that truly is getting top down investment in it as well and top down buy-in where it's like, okay, this isn't optional. This is something that we need to be a united front on. And then really creating a more collaborative environment for that because it did previously kind of work that way where you could get away with your silos.
But if you want to really rise to the occasion and meet your readers in those windows when they need that information the most, you gotta hit those, all of those channels. So yeah, that would be just like square one. And obviously that could be a whole other chat of how you would expand that but I think you just have to think bigger and really be in sync across all of those channels.
Jon Clark (38:14)
Yeah.
was curious around your approach to TikTok keyword research. Is that something that you've, I don't know, played around with or worked with other teams to try to get some knowledge around or...?
Louisa Frahm (38:30)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. So my favorite way just being straight up that I like to do a keyword research on TikTok is I'm a big fan of just like the search bar, you know, like when I see things that are I always love to see where it's it's like there's the cross platform juice going on. And it's like if something is popping on traditional Google search or I'm seeing it in Google Trends, I like to do that separate search in TikTok and then see what the drop down menu says
Jon Clark (38:45)
Mm-hmm.
Louisa Frahm (38:54)
try to find some other angles. Obviously for any brand that is targeting Gen Z or younger demographics, that's gonna be a really important practice, right? Of like on that particular platform, how are people taking whatever this topic is? A really fun one recently, because I was doing daily trend reports for it where I did that quite a bit, was the Olympics, right? It's really interesting to see like, what would the TikTok audience be looking for around the Olympics versus like
Google Trends. There actually were like some interesting divides with that. But it didn't mean that like if I created something off of what I saw in TikTok that it couldn't potentially resonate with a more traditional like Google search, Google Trends sort of audience. So I know I this whole time I've definitely promoted like not over complicating it, but that really is one of my favorite ways to conduct research is to just go off of like what am I already
looking into when it comes to Google Trends. And then I do that not only with TikTok, but you can use YouTube in the same way, like just go into a search bar, look it up, see what the drop down menu says and, you know, find those other like cross platform opportunities. So obviously, you know, it's it's all just coming together to give you the best idea of what do people care the most across different platforms? Yeah. So that's my simple way of doing it personally. But but and I have found some really cool
opportunities that way that maybe wouldn't have popped up in Google Trends or on other, you know, within other tools that I was using.
Jon Clark (40:13)
Yeah, we lead trainings for clients, of course, very much like you probably do in-house. And when we get to the keyword research section, we always have a slide. It's like, here's your easiest way. Just go to Google and start typing in what it is you're looking for, don't overcomplicate it. Google will tell you what other people are looking for. You may not get the search volume, but you have a pretty good there. I wanted to put, yeah, super easy.
Louisa Frahm (40:25)
It's easy! Yeah!
It's nice, it's nice.
Jon Clark (40:37)
I would quickly go back to the explainer hub mainly around the internal linking. So just sticking with the Pacers example. How are you guys finding internal or how are you thinking about building the authority of that piece? So for example, I could imagine you have a ton of Reggie Miller content. Obviously didn't win, had some great battles with the Bulls and others. But would you go back
Louisa Frahm (40:54)
you
Jon Clark (40:57)
like that far to content to point those internal links to a piece like that? Or is it something where you're sort of building out a hub and all of that sort of works together?
Louisa Frahm (41:06)
It's a really good point. I'm not at all dismissing that sort of strategy for what that would mean. I see exactly what you're saying. The reason why, and I think it really depends on your brand, right? For us, I know when we were in that sort of window, we were going to get the most search traction with linking back to more current content. It's just the way that our CMS worked and kind of knowing older content. It wouldn't have really been an option for us to do that.
Jon Clark (41:30)
Yeah, yeah.
Louisa Frahm (41:32)
that being said, that was our way of looking at it was, and that's why, like I said, that like in that intro paragraph, you're making sure that you're linking out to that expert content that was from our in-house team that was providing all of the latest, you know, information that people would need to know. And then the other part of it too is on the flip side, we would be encouraging whether that was like in the news or that we had, that was just like the breakout news of, you know, the Pacers made it to whatever it is, or if it was in more of like,
a standalone sort of feature on what was going on that you're linking back to the explainer that we had, right? So it goes both ways and that was really what it is. I guess it's been the theme of our whole chat, but like with us, that more simple approach to it of really prioritizing more of the current content made the most sense. that could really vary depending on your brand, right? If you were a brand where like, you know, your legacy content carried like that kind of week, then I think you could certainly explore that.
Just for us and knowing the way that we function, which was in much more of a kind of breaking news sort of pace, we were going to get the most value and link equity out of really prioritizing that recent content. But the two-way stream was really important. So whenever we could, obviously we were linking back to our in-house expert coverage in our intro and in our content, but we also wanted that in the opposite direction. So when we could add in our explainer, we wanted it to be featured
in those other pieces. So it's all very cyclical.
Jon Clark (42:57)
Got it, got I was curious around that explainer hub from an EEAT perspective. Like how were you guys thinking about that? I don't know, maybe even a level up from there. In the age of LLMs, how are you viewing EEAT? Is it still something that's important were you seeing those signals play out for ESPN and others?
Louisa Frahm (43:19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that, and I always say like everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I know that I've read some things in different places where, you know, there's been some arguments of like the role of service journalism and the role of like utility content. And when, you know, LLMs can, you know, kind of gobble it up and reproduce it, like, does it still have the same value? Like, I absolutely acknowledge like those arguments and I get where they're coming from.
I just was extremely proud to represent a brand like ESPN. And I felt every single day that because of the authority and the longstanding trust that we had with our fans, which truly predated our website even, I it goes back to like our on air, like legacy that we have with our fans positively influences the brand traffic that we get now online. I just firmly stand in this place of if you have that kind of longstanding connection and builds up trust,
with your readers, with your fans, with your users, you have an obligation to in the age of LLMs, where we all know inaccuracies are frequent enough that it's concerning and people are looking at things in timely windows and being led in different directions, you have that responsibility to provide accurate information. And I really viewed that as an obligation and a responsibility actually that I was proud to have with this content that we were creating. I can also tell you from like,
being embedded in the sports world now for the last several years, sports fans are statisticians and they notice when even the smallest little thing is off in a list. So that was what drove me even further. I mean, my brother is the biggest sports fan that I know and he will absolutely notice if even the smallest thing is off. So I really took that as a responsibility that I wanted to rise to the occasion for with this content. I think there's absolutely still a place for it.
Jon Clark (44:44)
That's true.
Louisa Frahm (45:04)
And we end to go back to your question about EEAT. We did see the payoff from that, you a lot of those windows where LLMs would be saying wonky things. And I ran a lot of tests since like, hey, what is it pulling in? Our source could be the one in that lineup that was cracked. And I really believe over time that that fuels long term loyalty that makes people want to come back and be, you know, you can get more repeat visitors that way. And we really did see the payoff. I still
absolutely believe in EEAT. And I think it's more important than ever. Because isn't that what journalism is all about is that you are serving information to your readers in the windows when they need it the most. And this would obviously be even more critical. can reflect back a few jobs. But when I was at the LA Times, and I mean, I was actually like pre-AI overviews and everything like that, it'd be interesting to go back to that time like now. But we were dealing with life or death situations there, like wildfires
Jon Clark (45:43)
Sure.
Louisa Frahm (45:58)
and shootings. I mean, when you work in hard news, I still have many friends who work on the hard news side. I still, I see similar value where it's like, especially if a wildfire is quickly spreading throughout a city, I mean, you need to know definitively what the evacuation zones are and you need to be providing that information. So I do absolutely understand that the AI concerns and zero click is very real, but that's where I think it all comes back together in the middle, right? Of what we were talking about of,
Jon Clark (45:58)
Right, yeah.
Louisa Frahm (46:25)
you know, it isn't a reason to stop doing it because that's what journalism is. And that's why we're here doing the work that we do every single day. But we do have to think bigger about how do we reach our audiences everywhere they are. I actually really loved this conversation because I think it's all connected. That's why, like, your great question, Constance, about TikTok strategy and, these other platforms that we should be thinking about, that's why it isn't just about Google anymore. We need to be taking these search triggers. That's what's still there. That's why I firmly believe search isn't dead until people stop
Jon Clark (46:49)
Yeah.
Louisa Frahm (46:54)
searching for information, which I don't imagine happening anytime soon. But we need to take search triggers and then maximize the potential reach of where we can connect with our audiences. We need to be anywhere and everywhere that they consume content. And that brings us back to the audience point, right? Like it's becoming more of an audience strategist versus just traditional search. But yeah, EEAT, absolutely. It was something that, it is something that has driven
every day of my news career. And I'm really proud of that, and I've been so fortunate to work for a variety of places where I've taken our reputations very seriously. And I wanted to provide that information to readers in the windows when they need it most. So yeah, I definitely saw the payoff of that. And that's why I've continued to advocate for it.
Jon Clark (47:38)
Love that. I know we're bumping up against time. Maybe we jump to a couple of quick rapid fire questions.
Louisa Frahm (47:43)
Sure, yeah, I love it.
Jon Clark (47:44)
All right, what's the most underrated SEO metric in a newsroom?
Louisa Frahm (47:49)
Ooh, SEO metric. That's interesting. I don't know, in terms of being underrated, again, like think you just need to be thinking about, you know, any type of signal that shows that you got a performance, you the performance that you were looking for. And the most traditional ones, I mean, that always come to mind for people are like page views, clicks, like unique visitors, things like that. But something that I'm always curious about is if you do
more of like a hub page for something, then overall like time spent on the page, I think can be really important. Like a repeat visits, I think can be really important when you're doing more like evergreen content. Like, is this a resource that people are coming back to again and again and again? Working in the spaces that I have, I think that actually would be a really good one because a lot of the time, this actually is a good one.
Jon Clark (48:19)
Okay, sure.
Louisa Frahm (48:35)
In breaking news, with many newsrooms, obviously, it takes precedence. It does. It's like we create breaking news content. It has an expiration date. It goes up, it goes down, and it's gone. I do like when it comes to SEO because I truly believe evergreen still has a place. It just has to be coordinated correctly. That repeat visits and is that something that people are coming back to again and again and again can prove the value of a utility piece of content. So that's why when I'm a big fan of like
landing pages, you know, like where you know that throughout like an extended event cycle, this is something that's going to be continuously refreshed and people come back to that would be one metric where like I would pay closer attention to that because so often in news we can get really caught up in the like immediate aftermath of a story. A lot of the way newsrooms turn out content is in that way where it's like up down and then it drops off. But if you're thinking more about like evergreen strategy, really do like the repeat visits. Is this something that people
Jon Clark (49:23)
Right.
Louisa Frahm (49:30)
are consistently finding value in, because that really helps to influence what content I would pursue in the future.
Jon Clark (49:35)
What's your favorite Tentpole to prepare for? Olympics, Super Bowl?
Louisa Frahm (49:39)
Oh my God, that's such a big question. That's like picking my favorite child. I love tentpole events.
It's like my favorite thing that I've done. I don't know. I guess now that I've been in the sports world, obviously like sports, sports, you know, just come straight to mind because I love how unifying they are. I love how they can bring together from people, like people from so many different backgrounds. It's very fresh in my mind, but I would just call it out. Like I've done two Olympic cycles.
Now I'm at ESPN and I had done the Olympics prior to that at other places where I had worked. But I always love an event like the Olympics because it's so there are so many possibilities when it comes to content of how you can target people not only in like your specific region, but worldwide. So any kind of events like that I think are really fun to play around with just to see like what can be a little bit more like local versus what is more of like the grand scheme of things.
again, it's great ground for utility content, which I love. I'm also just a pop culture junkie, you know, anyone who knows me would know that I would be remiss to not say that, you know, I love working the Oscars, I love working the Grammys, I love award shows, I really do. Those are some of the most chaotic and fun news nights of my life that I've ever had. But I really do love like responding to things in real and tracking trends.
Elections in a similar way, you know, just because it's so live in the moment and you don't know what's going to happen. think I may have previously told you Jon, but you it takes you have to like a certain amount of chaos to do this type of work. And I know that I'm one of those people because I got very fired up in those moments where I'm excited to jump on things or to do a quick turn explainer or to react to something. So, yeah, I've really enjoyed elections. I've enjoyed those, you know, award shows when they popped up. I love those
large-scale sporting events. Yeah, just tentpole events in general have been one of my absolute favorite parts of my work. So there would be many examples.
Jon Clark (51:28)
I didn't actually realize you were at E! the same time that I was at NBC Universal. So I'm wondering if we worked on the same Olympic efforts there. We might've been in the same room together. Who knows? That's wild.
Louisa Frahm (51:37)
Maybe, who knows, who knows?
Constance (51:39)
That's so funny.
Louisa Frahm (51:41)
It's a small world, it really is.
Jon Clark (51:44)
There really is.
end on this one because I know we have a hard Who is your March Madness pick?
Louisa Frahm (51:49)
Oh man, March, well, okay. ⁓ Let's see, okay. I am, I come from a very proud USC Trojan family, so I always have a soft spot for them in any sort of sporting event cycle. always them. My family would hate me for saying this though, just because I have always immensely respected Gino
Jon Clark (51:51)
Put you on the spot.
Louisa Frahm (52:11)
and the UConn ladies on the women's basketball side. They're having a historic season right now. And I love when history is made again and his streak is incredible. And I just, have immense respect for that institution and what he's built. So I know some people can say it's boring to root for the dominant one, but I really do love when history is made. So they might have to be kind of my lock on the women's side, just cause I, I literally
Jon Clark (52:13)
Yeah.
again.
Louisa Frahm (52:39)
before I joined ESPN, the biggest thing that I knew about Connecticut was the UConn women's basketball team. And I say that with pride. That was the biggest thing I knew about the state because I had followed it since I was a kid. And then on the men's side, I'm always open. I mean, I would say the same allegiance just generally to USC. But I actually went to a University of Colorado at Boulder for my undergrad. So those are my allegiances that I always have.
I like the standards. I like, you know, the Dukes and, you know, those types of teams where you just, you know, one of my best friends went to KU. I always do have a soft spot for KU when this time of the year comes around. So I always say I vote for the best basketball possible. I'm not necessarily some I I love diehard fandoms and I love all my friends who have those allegiances. I have my own as well. But at the end of the day, if I get my great basketball, I also love Cinderella stories
and there are surprises in there. Like that's what I'm rooting for versus more of a like I have an absolute lock, even though I love friends like that who are very passionate about it. So I'm just I'm rooting for a great basketball in both the men's and the women's side.
Jon Clark (53:44)
Love it, love Well, Louisa, so this has been an absolute pleasure. I'm so happy that we're finally able to make this work. Let our listeners know where they can find you and are you gonna be speaking anywhere coming up?
Louisa Frahm (53:48)
Yes!
Yeah, so you know right now I'm in a little bit of a transitional period, you know from this drop that I was in. I was living in Connecticut. I'm moving back to Los Angeles. I'll be there you know starting in April of 2026. So I'm currently focusing on you know completing that move. But I am very active on LinkedIn. That's always a really good place to meet me. You know just in terms if you want to jump into my DMs or if you have any cool projects that you're working on. I'm very much
mapping out the next phase of my career from the West Coast. So would love to chat further on LinkedIn. And yeah, I public speaking has always been a huge passion of mine. So looking forward to jumping back into that. know, once I get through this kind of transitional phase that I'm in, but always open to discussions. And if anyone wants to chat further, you can definitely reach me on LinkedIn.
Jon Clark (54:38)
Well, thanks again for joining us on the Page 2 Podcast. And for those who are listening, I hope you enjoyed the show. Please remember to subscribe, rate and review. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye.
Louisa Frahm (54:47)
Thank you
guys. It was a pleasure. Have a great day. Thank you.