Think YouTube doesn’t work for B2B? Michelle Morgan is here to prove you wrong and show you exactly how to build high-converting funnels using smart sequencing, retargeting, and automation that actually works. If you're tired of paid media fluff and want hard-hitting tactics, this episode is your roadmap.
https://page2pod.com - In this episode of the Page 2 Podcast, we site down with Michelle Morgan, co-founder of Paid Media Pros and one of the most respected voices in PPC, to talk about how paid media actually works for B2B.Â
Michelle dives deep into the evolving landscape of Google Ads, LinkedIn, YouTube, Facebook, and more, sharing practical strategies for marketers navigating automation, AI, and ad fatigue.
From performance-max campaigns to CRM integrations, she shares how to build scalable, conversion-focused funnels that move beyond "just check the AI box" and instead focus on clarity, intent, and control. Whether you're in eCommerce or B2B SaaS, this is your playbook for paid media that delivers.
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🎧 This episode is your crash course in smart, no-fluff paid media that scales.
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YouTube ads actually work for B2B lead generation. Michelle Morgan says yes, but only if you stop treating it like Google Search. Michelle Morgan is the co-founder of Paid Media Pros, an industry writer international speaker in one of the sharpest voices in PPC. Since 2010, she's been helping brands, especially B2B, figure out how to reach the right audience at the right state of the buyer journey, and in a world of AI driven ad platforms and blurred targeting lines.
That's harder than ever. This episode gets into the strategy and structure behind paid media that actually works from Performance Max to LinkedIn Con conversation ads. We talk about sequencing content across YouTube qualifying leads before feeding them into Google Ads and why so many landing pages still fail at the basics.
Michelle also breaks down how automation is changing the role of a PPC marketer. And while becoming an editor, not a writer might be the new superpower. The shuttle approach is all about clarity and control, but with platforms pushing, just check the AI box. Even the best strategies need constant rethinking.
This one is a deep dive into the real mechanics of paid media. Let's get into,[00:01:00]
welcome to another episode, episode 92, actually the page two podcast podcast. Quickly counting down to a hundred. Uh, I'm your host, John Clark, and as always, enjoying by my partner Crowd Moving Traffic Media. Joe D. Today we're excited to welcome Michelle Morgan. Welcome to the show, Michelle.
Michelle: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Excited to be here.
Jon: So we've, uh, mostly focused on SEO. Um, we had, I feel a DeFazio on and we had a great conversation around social. So we're excited to dig into page search with you today. Um, and a lot of great accolades associated, you've been doing paid search since 2010, uh, paid search marketer of the year.
Um, so you, and you and Joe sort of came together to form, uh, paid media pros. Tell us a little bit about that initial conversation back in 2018 and. Sort of the fruition [00:02:00] of where you are today.
Michelle: Yeah, totally. So, um, when it comes down to it, it was really Joe's idea. So I know that he had been kind of an avid content creator.
He had seen me in the space as well. Um, we ended up strangely being on, I wanna say two or three panels together earlier that year at SMX West out in San Jose, and just had a very similar approach to one, kind of how we actually manage accounts, but then also how we convey the information. So it was pretty, pretty obvious that we aligned on that.
And then, um, yeah, at Hi Confi asked me about writing a book. So we got together and that was kind of the first thing that we were focused on. And then, um, Joe has always been. More focused or at least more interested in some YouTube campaigns, that sort of thing. So kind of got toying around with the idea of maybe doing a couple videos first, that sort of thing.
And um, started doing that. And then as we got into it, it's kind of like, well at this point writing a book feels pretty stupid, so we just avoided [00:03:00] that and didn't really come back to it. No shade for anybody who writes a book. That's great, but that is not our speed. It's a little bit easier to get up here and just talk and then post it to the internet, you know, a little bit easier than actually writing a book.
Joe: The book gets so outdated so fast too. That's why this is a better read that
Michelle: too. Yeah. And it was kind of something that some of the videos that we put together were around like the newer releases and it's like, how are we ever gonna write a book that keeps up with that that also feels relevant? And I mean, just if you look back at a couple of the videos we put up two years ago, like the interface is completely different.
Doesn't, doesn't really translate. So yeah. But books get outdated pretty quick in this space.
Jon: It's funny, one of our first conversations with was with Mike King and he's been working on like an SEO like technical book and mm-hmm. It seems like every three months it changes, so it's like, yes. Perpetually ongoing.
Absolutely. Um, so you are now I think, 45,000 subscribers on YouTube. Um, many, many videos. [00:04:00] Um. You know, for a brand who's just starting out, um, such as the page two podcast, what recommendations do you have for, you know, creating video contents that is engaging and. You know, actually drives that type of subscriber growth?
Is it purely just longevity or,
Michelle: I think a lot of it is longevity. Um, I think one of the things that really helps us is that we have always been pretty true to ourselves and we try to convey things in ways that are actually actionable. Um, there's a lot of stuff out there, it's just around fluff and kind of high level thinking, but that was one of the things that we aligned on pretty well when it came to, uh, presentation style as well as actually focusing on the tactics and how do you make these changes.
And that just is our angle that we've always taken. We always show interface stuff. We always talking about that sort of thing. So, um, I would say find kind of, what is your natural way that you want to engage with people and then stick with it. There's an audience for pretty much [00:05:00] everybody, every personality, every approach.
I mean, if you go to our YouTube channel, all of the. Title cards and everything, except for some that we tested recently are just the logo and the text. We don't have any of those like weird faces that people do. Those work really well for those people. One, they didn't work as well for us. And two, that's just not us in general.
That's not really our personality. So just be true to yourself and talk about what's important to you. 'cause odds are it's gonna be important to somebody else too.
Joe: You've learned a little bit about your own audience as you've grown too. You haven't changed at all the, the type of material or the way in which you talk about it based on what you know of your own audience.
Michelle: Yeah, for the most part, they're all pretty much practitioners and they all wanna know like the tactical day-to-day, what to do. Um, all of the comments that we get are really more technical questions about like. Which actual button do I hit? What can I expect when this happens? It's not like super high level questions about us wanting to put together like a keynote style presentation.
They want [00:06:00] hard tactics all the time. So what we were kind of inclined toward, we definitely have found that audience and that's kind of where they want us to stick. I think
Jon: that's amazing. Um, maybe we can start getting into some of those types of questions. Um, let's stick with YouTube. So, um, you know, I think YouTube advertising for a while was thought of as kind of this brand channel, but we've seen it become a little bit more efficient on the acquisition side.
Um, do you have any recommendations for how to, like sequence video content or video ads as it relates to. Taking someone into that lead journey, if that makes sense, or that purchase funnel.
Michelle: Yeah, for sure. We definitely think that kind of you're, you're starting YouTube campaigns. We've got a lot of folks that want them to perform like search, because YouTube is the second largest search engine.
They want them to convert right away, but they just don't. We've kind of always said that if somebody converts off of a YouTube ad like that, it's just icing on the cake. [00:07:00] That's great. Um, but the better strategies are to make sure that you are introducing your brand. YouTube gives you. All the space in the world, just make sure that you hit the um, kind of the content suitability standards.
And you can basically say whatever you want. You can have whatever type of brand narrative that you want in there. So introduce your brand in the way that is the most compelling to people for your first set of videos. And then you can create audiences based off of how people engage with those videos.
If they saw this one specific video that you have that talks about this one topic, you can follow up with that audience about that specific topic. Or you could create an audience of people who's just seen any video on your YouTube channel and just engage with them further. So you're gonna need to layer those in based on kind of the buyer stages that make sense for your business.
But those audiences have been absolutely the most valuable piece that we can use to engage users, get them in that flow, and then start to remarket them later through other audience tactics throughout the Google Ads interface.
Jon: Yeah, I was gonna ask about the [00:08:00] retargeting piece. So, um. Building those retarding retargeting audiences through video consumption is a great way to, you know, get volume quickly.
Um, for someone who's just starting and maybe thinking about YouTube as a more of a re retargeting channel, um, are there like best practice ways to start to segment maybe initial audiences that you have? If you haven't run on YouTube before,
Michelle: that'll all just depend on how big your audiences are and pretty much if you've got.
Hundreds of thousands of people who engage with you every day. You can get a lot more segmented and try to find the people who are, you know, if you're trying to get returning visitors, if they've already, if you're e-commerce, if they've already spent something on your site, maybe you could have like high ticket purchasers versus just everybody else.
You could have high LTV folks, that sort of thing. Um, but if you've got a smaller audience, it probably makes sense just to group everybody together and see what types of patterns you can find within that performance. Whether it's the [00:09:00] actual placements that they're engaging with or, um, any of kind of the affinity audiences that they find themselves in.
You can use that to eventually help segment and use it for prospecting audiences as well.
Jon: Yeah, I love that. We used to use, um, you know, Facebook, uh, um, page level insights to help find those audiences and those affinities and things like that. Um, maybe we'll jump into Facebook here in a second, but maybe one last question around YouTube.
So, or maybe Google Ads in general. Um. There's so much automation being pushed, right. Um, where a lot of the levers and controls that Joe and I came up in the industry being able to manage and have strict sort of guardrails around, are getting blurred more and more. Um, how do you approach situations like that where there's maybe value in letting the machines work, but also having some of that control?
Are there any, you know, best [00:10:00] practices as far as applying some of those limitations to the, the, the automation?
Michelle: Yeah. So for the most part, we now have the ability to have some input on just about every type of automation that Google has. Um, either you get to turn it off and be selective, like some of the, um.
URL expansion and text customization that comes in performance max. And like AI Max, you can't really control what the text says, but you can turn that feature off if it doesn't look good. Um, you can control the URLs that Google uses for that URL expansion, just the same way you would with dynamic search ads.
You can tell them, only use these URLs or exclude this set of URLs, that sort of thing. So the way that, um, is probably the easiest for most people to think about AI in. What happens in the interface is to kind of treat it like a first year intern. They can go in and they can take a lot of stuff off your plate, but you gotta watch it.
You need [00:11:00] to go in and check regularly and make sure that they're not getting too far afield and getting too excited about one thing and going just way off the reservation reservation 'cause that happens from time to time. So I definitely think the AI pieces are hugely beneficial. Um, bidding strategies is the one that comes to mind that is like the best thing that they do.
I mean, they've got so many other signals that we can't use that. It's just incredible to watch an account that goes from manual CPC to automated bidding, how much better it performs on average. Um, but when it comes to some of the other features, you just really need to leverage all of the exclusions that you can use.
All of the targeting, narrowing features that we have in there, um, and really just hold its hand basically 'cause. Google takes all of these insights and all of its automated decisions from a huge bucket of advertisers and what works well for business as a whole, not your business. So you definitely need to make sure that you're kind of keeping those guardrails up and monitoring it so that it actually is working for you and not just for [00:12:00] business as a whole.
Joe: You know what got lost on me a little bit when we were first introduced to Performance Max, and now AI Max is the amount of choice you actually have when you, when the, the product is first presented to us as, as advertisers, marketers, it's like, we've got this, we've got this solution. You click the box and you're done.
But it's, it's a lot more sophisticated. You've got, like, you've gotta make 15 cho, you have like 15 different choices you can make. I want this for this ad group, I want that for this ad group. Like there's a lot of. There's a lot of targeting and strategy you can put into even one campaign using AI Max.
It's not, it's not like a button in your, if you're a, if you're a brand new to Google Ads, you just click this button and you're going like, no one should really do that. You've gotta spend time thinking about every single one of those options. Does this make sense for me? Yes. No. Move on to the next.
Michelle: Exactly and Performance Max was offered as that type of tool and they kind of just said, here you go. [00:13:00] And it left us alone for like two years with it. And then recently I think they have started to hear how frustrated we are. And now we have um, actually a very good voice internally in Jenny Marvin, who I think has helped to translate a lot of advertiser frustration because she also was an advertiser.
Um, and now we have all these cool features where we can pull these levers. And I think that she's really been a benefit in that realm because now we have negative keywords. We can actually see the search terms that are showing up. You can see the placements that they show up on. And they just recently launched the channel performance report where you can see how much of your volume is coming from YouTube versus Gmail versus search.
Like we now have these insights, and even if not all of them, you can pull a lever on specifically, you at least know what's going on now. So I have said before that like. I think that a lot of times the platforms wanna put together something that says ai, just check the box and it's good to go. And I think a lot of advertisers, weirdly enough, are like, why isn't this perfect?
But then they also are like, AI is gonna steal my [00:14:00] job. It's like you can't have both. It's either gonna take your job or you wanna do your job, so you gotta pick one. And I really think that it needs to just, you know, have its handheld a little bit
Jon: there. There is a lot of conflicts with AI and, and just what's happening in our industry.
Um, in general. You mentioned, uh, bidding strategies, um, as it relates to ai, when you make that bidding strategy change, you sort of destabilize that learning period as well. Is there, um. I guess when you're looking at a, in an account and you have some data, how do you start to think through, it makes more sense to be using, you know, uh, chartered roas or max conversion, right?
Like what's your, you know, methodology to determine when it makes sense to make that bidding change?
Michelle: Yeah, so typically I'm only really gonna lean into any of the automated bidding. When we have enough conversion volume, you've gotta make sure that you've got enough coming through. So the, the low end that we usually say is anywhere [00:15:00] from 30 to 50 conversions a month.
For some businesses that's not realistic, and we've seen it work well with lower volume than that, but on average. That's usually about the breaking point to where things could be. Um, so if we're not hitting that, I'm probably gonna try to get a little more volume through, figure that out first. Um, even if that means changing what the conversion action is to have a little better insight, then sometimes we can do that as well.
Um, but then after that, it usually will be a factor of how the campaigns are performing compared to our goal. So if we have lots of conversion volume coming through, but it's focusing on an ebook download as opposed to a purchase and we're not getting revenue associated with that, then I'll start to associate or start to test out kind of the maximize uh, conversion value strategy a little bit and then start to test the target row as that sort of thing.
Um, but it all is just a function of what the goals are for the account and are we in a position to where we have enough volume that we can actually support a [00:16:00] test to move one way or another?
Jon: Yeah. I remember when we first started running. P max for like B2B campaigns. The spam lead, the spam lead volume was just out control
Michelle: still is.
Um, I,
Jon: I was gonna say, if you, you know, how, how have you gotten your arms around that? I mean, one, one of the things that we've done is just keep a very long list of domains as our exclusion and like any new campaign that gets applied. But how are you tackling that challenge? Is it, is it purely a volume where the model has always.
Michelle: Yeah, it, it ends up being, um, so you can, you can do it in a couple ways. You can retain your current conversion action and kind of play whack-a-mole like you are. Sometimes that works well and you just have to stay on top of it and regularly optimize for different placements, different search terms, all that stuff.
Um, the way that we have found that works best. If you have the proper setup and enough volume coming through, and a [00:17:00] cooperative sales team is to utilize conversion, uh, uploads from your CRM and utilize qualified leads as your conversion action rather than just leads. Um, but again, that requires having your CRM integrated.
Ideally automated pushes not a manual upload once a month. That's just not real time enough. Um, but it also requires your sales team to actually label an ad or label a lead qualified when it comes in. We've had plenty of times where we've had tons of qualified leads come in and the integration should be working, but the sales team decided that their workflow was different.
So now the fields we had set up were not the same that the ones that were in the interface. So you've gotta have a lot of domino pieces going the right way, but when they are. I will still contest that the automated bid strategies are extremely good at finding people who do what you tell it to do. Um, so if it's got enough volume coming through of qualified leads, there's a good chance that Google will be able to actually find those people and get them through at the rate that you need them.
Joe: We've [00:18:00] seen a lot of luck. We, we have a lot of real estate clients and, um. There's, you know, for anyone who wants to buy a house, sometimes you start looking for that dream house years before you're ready to buy it. So, you know, for, I'm thinking of this one group of real estate clients in particular, they have beautiful homes and they get a lot of interest in the homes.
Not many of those people are ready to go see it in, in like convert. So we connected their HubSpot to, to Google ads and like this was within a week we saw, you know, we're optimizing to a much smaller number of qualified leads. They were sales qualified leads. And, um, it took a little while for the system to reset, but the amount of conversions that Google found after that for us was, was incredible.
I have a question about when you can't make that connection. So with some of our clients, even we, we've even like. Pursued Zapier to make the connections that aren't automated. But for some clients who are less sophisticated, it's just tough and you have to do manual [00:19:00] uploads of your contact lists. So if you have any experience with that, like what is the threshold in which you like up?
Like update that contact list for Google or Facebook or LinkedIn? Is it number of people? Is it time? How do you think about that?
Michelle: Yeah, it, I mean, if you've only got a couple of people coming through a week, it's hard to justify spending the time to do it. Um, but you know, if you've got anywhere from 10 20 leads coming in a week that are in there, then probably a manual upload every week is gonna be a good way to do it.
If you've got, you know, 10 to 20 people coming in every day might make sense for you to do it every day. Um, just really depends. 'cause every time you feed that algorithm, it's got more to go on. Um, so it's always good to have as close to real, real-time data as you can, but obviously there's just a point to where it becomes prohibitive.
Um, so I think it's just more of if you've got a good number of people, but even if you don't, let's say you average the, you know, two to three people who come [00:20:00] in a week, I would still probably do it once a week. Like, 'cause it'll, it's still take you, you know. Export format, import maybe 10 minutes. And if you can have, you know, just a couple people added to that list, keep it refreshed, you're probably gonna benefit yourself in the long term.
And then maybe at some point you'll be able to get that automated solution in place. But my guess is that that would still be a good benefit to be able to do that.
Jon: Kind of a, kind of a funny follow up to that, uh, real estate client. We, we, when we first made the connection, we discovered that they were going in and deleting all the old, um, basically the low quality leads.
So the system was never learning and just basically reduplicate. So that was, that was a fun exercise. Um, uh, I, I've, I've, um, when you think about e-commerce versus B2B, I think just through this discussion, I, I think B2B is tougher than e-commerce. I don't know if you have any feelings about that, but. Um, when you're sort of running those types of [00:21:00] campaigns on the B2B side, are there any just, you know, table stakes applications, um, that make sense to apply when you're just starting out and, and running a campaign like that?
Michelle: Yeah, so I definitely think that B2B is harder in some ways because it's more of a challenge just inherently. You know, with e-commerce, the revenue is right away, and yes, your product might be extremely hard to sell and maybe it's a really high ticket item, and that would be the function of how it gets to be difficult.
But odds are most B2B things are also high ticket items and hard to sell. Um, and then you've gotta add in the time component and the actual, like sales and nurture component, that sort of thing. Um, if you are just getting started with your B2B marketing campaigns, um. The type of thing that I would invest the most in honestly, is going to be your content and your messaging about how you're actually better than your competitors.
So if that actually requires you to have additional software, anything else that [00:22:00] helps with that, then? Sure. But I think the biggest thing that people are lacking in the lead gen space is the ability to be compelling in their ad copy and their landing pages. You talk to business owners or uh, CMOs, that kind of stuff, and they can just write you a novel about how good their stuff is and that's great.
And then you go to their landing page and all it is is buzzwords and it doesn't mean anything. And you still don't know what their sell, even though you work for them. And it doesn't make any sense. So I think the ability to be able to convey why you're better than everybody else, that's gonna be the thing to invest in the most at the beginning.
And then after that, you can start running ads toward it.
Jon: Now do you help, do you help sort of define what that thing is or, um. Let's call it a landing page. Do you help them construct that copy and sort of that end-to-end flow or is that something that you sort of hope they have in place already? Um, or sort of nurture them along that?
Michelle: Yeah, so usually a lot of the businesses that we work with have a pretty mature approach to what they do [00:23:00] with that, but there's plenty of people that we work with that are just getting started. Um, the way that we've always phrased it is that we are the experts on the ad channels. You are the expert in your business.
So I can go to your landing page as a lay person and say, I don't know what any of this means, and I should because we've already gone through a sales process. I know what you sell and I still don't know what this stuff means. So that's a problem, right? So, um, typically from that respect, we will call out language that is not.
Compelling or useful or just doesn't really seem to make any sense, or it comes off as spammy. You know, I, there's so many of these buzzwords that everybody thinks are the right words, but then if you see 10 of 'em strung together in a row, it's like, this is, this is terrible. So, um, typically in that respect, we'll go through and maybe suggest some areas that need some work.
We might suggest rephrasing if we have a good enough understanding of the differentiator to be able to put that together. But we definitely come up with different like templates for the landing pages and say, this is the type of language you need here. This is the type you need here. This'll get us started, and then we'll [00:24:00] just test and iterate based on what's working, what's not.
Jon: I'd love to dig into LinkedIn a little bit just on the lines of the B2B conversation. Um. Maybe as it relates to those, you know, um, key selling points, like how do you think about integrating them into the different ad types? Right. Do you think about, you know, um, ad placements as specific ways to say different messaging?
Or are you really looking for more the consistent touch points that eventually get someone to that next step? Does that make sense?
Michelle: Yeah, I think so. Um, specifically on LinkedIn, we are looking for kind of top to mid funnel folks and trying to get them to understand. The key selling features of a company a little bit better or to understand the business as a whole, if it's top level.
LinkedIn is similar to YouTube in that respect, that it's really not someplace that people are just gonna request a demo right away. Um, not that it can't work, but you'd definitely be in the minority if your campaign just all the sudden starts generating demo requests. [00:25:00] So, um, what we like to do is use lots of content on LinkedIn, get users to engage, but so many times people think that means single image ad.
Ebook download, that's it. But you can use all sorts of different formats for that same ebook. I love document ads for that because you basically upload the document. If it's an 18 page ebook, you can tease the first five pages. Once you've got people actually paying attention to it, then they'll download it.
They'll probably read the rest of it, and they're just a warmer lead than they would be if they didn't know anything about it to begin with. Um, but there's lots of different creatives that you can use on there, like conversation ads. You basically just get like a whole chat bot type of thing where you've got kind of an if then flow based on how people engage with the message.
Um, but all you gotta do is utilize the content, assets on LinkedIn a little bit better. Um, try to get creative with it, try to stand out. Obviously if everybody's doing content, it can be a crowded space, but that's where that messaging comes in. LinkedIn is also one of the most expensive ad channels out there, and I mean, for [00:26:00] good reason.
It's got all the good targeting in it. Um, but if you're gonna play in the most expensive sandbox, you should probably, you know, come correct.
Joe: Have you, have you ever experimented with their partnership network of trusted websites?
Michelle: No, I don't like it.
Joe: It's an automatic that with paid search ads, it's automatic off.
Like we've made that mistake 10 years ago and left it off accidentally. Like every campaign launches with that option off. And um, I've never spoke with anyone who's experimented with that. You would think.
Michelle: You would think that it should do something good, but for whatever reason, pretty much every set of partner networks that I come into, you run into the issue of, yes, you get expanded reach, but typically performance is worse and then nobody is held accountable for bad performance.
If we all of a sudden got a run of spam leads on Google Ads or LinkedIn, I would at least feel confident enough to go to them and say like. If this was spam, this was a bot, I'd like a refund. And sometimes it works, you know, [00:27:00] maybe 50% of the time, if it's the Search partner network or the LinkedIn A or the LinkedIn audience network, you can say these are spam leads.
And they'll go, sorry, it's not our website. Like, nobody is responsible for it. So nobody gets held accountable for it. Um, from time to time, I've seen search partners do okay on Google Ads, but I've actually had a client this year where, you know, any given month, one of the campaigns will just have a run of spam leads and it's like, well, that one's getting turned off.
So we've just been turning 'em off across the board. But LinkedIn is definitely like a categorical, it's off from the beginning. So if you, if you end up maxing out all of your audiences and you just need more volume from LinkedIn, maybe give it a test. But otherwise I would stay away from it. Personally,
Joe: we've never tested it successfully.
I just don't know why they even have it. I wonder who uses it and why I. I was gonna say,
Michelle: people who don't pay attention use it 'cause they don't know that it's checked.
Joe: You're having trouble spending money and you have to spend the money, you turn that,
Michelle: that is a budget I [00:28:00] will never understand when people are like, we have to use it or lose it.
It's like, just give it to me and I'll take a vacation. It'll be just as useful in this account. So I don't understand.
Joe: Um, sticking with LinkedIn for a little bit about building your audience on LinkedIn. Um, and I wonder, we have this back and forth with some clients who have like high profile executives and we try to get them, we try to get them, you know, involved in the marketing on LinkedIn to have them post on behalf of the company or getting quote for them.
You know, any good examples of how to use a high profile executive to boost the performance of a company page.
Michelle: So you can use those thought leadership ads and you can put together actual messaging from whoever that high level person is and have them direct to whatever the company page is or the URL or anything like that.
Um, that's usually the best way to do is just leverage who they have and have them post there. Um. Most of the time CEOs don't actually really like to go in, [00:29:00] do all the boosting and the posting and all that kind of stuff, but as long as you can get their thoughts down in one way or another, then you can have somebody else go in and actually do it for 'em on the back end.
But, um, we've seen some of those thought leadership ads do pretty well. Um, Joe's been the one who's been manning those campaigns a little bit more than me, but I know that they've definitely created a lot more engagement in a unique way because some of these brands, like I said, they kind of come off spammy when they're talking about themselves.
But if you've got a charismatic person who can really convey messaging and is well known in the space, it's a lot better trust signal than just a brand logo talking to you
Joe: before you start, before you start advertising, do you encourage them to the company to just post and tag that? Executive to see what kind of, um, interaction it gets or how do you warm an executive into that besides say, Hey, we're gonna put you in an ad next week.
Michelle: Yeah, totally. Um, I think that would be more where I would try to get them comfortable with the idea of just posting on their own page a little bit more. See what type of organic engagement they get. Odds are, [00:30:00] it's probably gonna be pretty favorable. Um, and then based on that, they'll probably be a little bit more enticed to actually go and, um, put something together and that's coming from an ad.
Um, if not, you could do like a CEO or a leadership spotlight or something on the company page and talk about them. See what type of resonance that has, basically just, you know, boost the ego a little bit and then tell them like, see, look, everybody loves you. Let's go ahead and just do this thing that I wanna do.
Joe: Yeah. Well, like with LinkedIn, people want to interact with people, not companies as much. So I just try to let people, as much, as much, we struggle with it too. We, the company has a profile page and we post from it, but those posts never do as well as when someone. From the company posts.
Michelle: Totally. Yeah.
That's how it always is.
Jon: I was gonna say, there's, there's nothing like ego selling, um, to, to get people listen.
Michelle: It works.
Jon: Exactly. Um, uh, on LinkedIn, is there, um, you mentioned the targeting capabilities and we definitely agree it's, especially for [00:31:00] B2B, probably the only place where you can find all of those different facets.
Are there any, um, newer targeting features that you found success with? Um, you know, over the past couple months,
Michelle: I haven't found any new that I've been able to test yet. Still kind of selling people on the ability to do it, but they now have, what do they call them? I wanna say buyer groups, something like that.
Um, that actually is focused on. The actual decision makers and that kind of stuff in certain areas. Um, there's always been a preset list of saved audiences where you can say like, tech decision makers, it's just from the saved audiences dropdown. I was like getting started with some idea about what LinkedIn thinks we should be targeting if they've got a space that's already about that.
Just 'cause I'm curious what they think. Obviously we'll adjust and augment that as need be to see the actual people that we're trying to target. But, um, I do know that they're trying to roll that out. They also, I wanna [00:32:00] say, are working on just fully automated targeting, um, with just hands off and I would say probably be real cautious if you're gonna test that.
Jon: Yeah, we, uh, I mean Facebook has tried to roll something like that out and we've seen a lot of just really. Bad ad examples, you know, beanie hats being displayed on people playing on the beach and things like that where it just makes no sense.
Michelle: It's a little scary sometimes what the platform comes up with.
Like I said, that's when like an intern gets excited about something that they can do. It doesn't mean they should do it, but they do it anyway.
Jon: Right, right. Um, with LinkedIn's relationship with Microsoft, have you found any success there, sort of running ads through Microsoft using those targeting capabilities or do you stick primarily with the LinkedIn platform?
Michelle: Definitely see better success on average with just the LinkedIn platform, but we have seen incremental volume coming from the Microsoft integration. You just get a little different [00:33:00] reach, a little different engagement from those same users. You can't use all of the exact same targeting options that you can on LinkedIn, but um, especially for folks that are trying to reach specific businesses, so any of kind of the A BM targeting, that sort of thing, you can target those companies on Microsoft and it really helps kind of narrow that down.
If nothing else, we feel like we're at least targeting more of the right people. Because one of the biggest challenges with B2B search comes down to if you're trying to target specific people, you can't really. Augment that unless you're just using ad copy that speaks only to those users. So it kind of helps us narrow that down a little bit when we're trying to reach specific companies.
Um, like I said, I wouldn't say it's necessarily something you turn it on and just print money, but it definitely helps have a little bit more volume coming through for those a BM lists.
Joe: If you're, if you're, if you have an account based marketing approach and you're lucky enough to have a budget big enough for a full funnel campaign, um, you could, you can conceivably [00:34:00] have campaigns at every level of the funnel just within LinkedIn, um, for the top of like an extension with your top of funnel activity.
Microsoft Display is not a terrible place to go next, even before Google, just because I think of that relationship they have with the LinkedIn target.
Michelle: Absolutely you can actually target the right companies, that sort of thing. 'cause a lot of people get locked into Microsoft tools at work. So that's why some of the company targets work pretty well there.
Um, on, on, uh, Google Ads, there's not that same component. You can't target based on company name, any of that kind of stuff. So yeah, if you wanna reach display network or even just kind of the extended Microsoft audience network, there's a lot that you can actually get into there. A lot of inventory available.
Jon: Yeah. Um, many years ago I was basically the equivalent of a Google Ads rep for Microsoft. And our biggest challenge was selling in spending because the volume was so low. Um. Back then you had to create basically 10,000 keywords for every a hundred [00:35:00] to a thousand on Google. It was a, it was a massive paint.
Um, are there, you know, that still holds true today. Are there any distinct advantages that you've found on Microsoft versus Google? That still,
Michelle: I think that typically Microsoft can still be cheaper than Google Ads can be in a lot of, uh, different industries because in a lot of ways you end up being, like some of the clients that we still have today.
You come to them and say, we're doing really well on Google. We think that we could find new audiences on Microsoft before extending into something different on Google that might perform less efficiently. Um, so why don't we test that first? And they say, ah, it's only gonna be a 10% lift. Let's test something else on Google.
So you've got people just wholeheartedly opting out of Microsoft. So if you've got, you know, 10 key competitors in your space and half of them aren't on Microsoft, you've got at least a good leg up on the other ones. So, um, it seems silly to just completely opt out of it in my mind. Um, and if even if you don't have an industry where everybody's kind of [00:36:00] opted away from it, it can still perform pretty well.
For the most part. We've got. All of our campaigns that are running on Google, at least for search mirrored over to Microsoft, they then need to be optimized differently because those audiences perform pretty differently. Um, but in my mind it's basically just another extension of search and there's kind, it's kind of a no-brainer to me, but a lot of people still don't really wanna do it, which doesn't make sense.
Jon: I was gonna ask about that. As far as the campaign structure, they've made it so easy to just get up and running. Um, obviously they, they needed to do that for incentives, but so. You have a Google Ads account, they're not running on Microsoft. Is it like nine times outta 10, you're just courting everything over and then making changes from there?
Michelle: Yeah, so typically what we do is whenever we're building out new campaigns, new research, all that sort of thing, we're giving it our best try at what's gonna make the most sense. And if that's gonna be the thing that makes sense on Google, then I don't have a better educated opinion for what's gonna work on Microsoft until I've got the performance coming through.
So for [00:37:00] the most part, everything starts off in the same spot from the same starting point, and then it just gets optimized in a different direction.
Jon: Um, I wanted to talk about quality score a little bit. It's seems like it's less talked about recently, but maybe, maybe that's just me. Um, one thing that we've noticed from AI overviews for example, is click through rate.
Obviously getting crushed on the SEO side, but there's been some studies, um. Um, that also showed that impact for page search ads as well. Um, do you anticipate that impacting quality scores in any way or because the overall average is coming down for everyone, it's sort of, you know, um, cancels itself out.
Does that make sense?
Michelle: Yeah. So the click-through rate that gets factored into Google Ads is based on your expected click-through rate. So I would assume that any of the overarching trends in click-through rate are gonna have some, uh, impact on the quality score stuff. So if overall things are coming down, I would imagine that the, it wouldn't have as big of an impact on quality score that way.
Um, [00:38:00] but yeah, I, I don't think that you're wrong that people don't talk quite as much about quality score. It seems like that was one, that was one thing in Google that everybody tried to optimize for, even though I was never a proponent of that. I hate quality score. I think it's dumb. Um, but anyway, um, but I think that.
Everybody's so focused on AI now that the quality score stuff kind of goes away, um, which I think is fine. It's not that it doesn't have an impact, but you can't optimize for it in the first place. So it's a little bit difficult to actually use as one of your KPIs.
Jon: Well, the irony that I always thought was, um, uh, maybe counterintuitive was click-through rate being such a a, a strong factor.
Like in some cases you don't want a strong click-through rate for many of the reasons that we talked about, right? You're trying to be very selective about who actually clicks and you pay for. So there's this conflict, um. Between what drives lower CPCs and what we actually might want to have happen. So, um,
Michelle: click between me and a [00:39:00] lot of my clients in the past about that because they would go in and they said, well, I read some articles and our quality scores are bad.
And it's like, I know, but you told me that we need enterprise people and we can't get enterprise people filling out the ads if we've got ad copy that speak to everybody. So we've gotta put in these different things that scare off the bargain shoppers, that scare off the small teams, all this kind of stuff.
So, exactly. I've had, I've had many discussions about the balance of quality score, click through rate, who we actually want to click on the ads and are all clicks good? And the answer is usually no.
Jon: Um, we've talked a lot about algorithms and impacts on, uh, you know, learning periods and things like that, transitioning over to Facebook, um, that that's been a notoriously difficult algorithm at times.
Is there. Any key component of the algorithm that you think is most misunderstood across the industry?
Michelle: I think. It's more fragile than people give it credit for. I think that they think that [00:40:00] they can just go and just run rough shot over all the changes they wanna make in the account. And they don't realize that every time you make a change, it throws things off so far and you need to be able to rein it in.
Um, there's always kind of been the, the suggested 20% rule of increasing your budget only 20% every day or decreasing at 20% every day. Um, if you're in a crunch and you really need to get spend up or down, that 20% rule definitely holds. But if you're not in a crunch, go 5%, 10% because it's so fragile about what it can and can't handle on a daily basis.
That I think that's what people don't understand. They see people just printing money with Facebook ads, and it's not that you can't do that, they absolutely can. But if you then go in and start pulling stuff up, down new creatives all the time, new audiences, all the time, all this stuff, you're never gonna get a pattern and it's not gonna learn.
Joe: The, the, the daily spend max, that is an algorithm into itself that operates separately from other [00:41:00] bidding algorithms. If you are willing to spend it, you'll spend it, you'll just pay for every click, and so, so we follow that. It's, we, we actually ne we never increase more than 10% and usually it's even less.
We try to go as as possible. This is why, like a good client relationship where you can have this conversation way ahead of time. Sometimes those clients are a little bit disorganized and they say, I need to do this now. It's like, all right, but only hurt all of us.
Michelle: Exactly, yeah. If you have to pull stuff up or down, okay, odds are I'm really gonna have a hard time.
If you're like, we've gotta double the spend today, it's like, ah, don't think I'm gonna do that. If you tell me we've really gotta pull, spend down by half today. Okay. There's a difference between like literally overspending your budget, but like if you're trying to ramp stuff up and, because everything is good, I'm gonna tell you every time you're gonna break it, but if you're pulling stuff down, it's because stuff's probably bad in the first place, so you know, you, you're probably just gonna keep being bad at that point.
So, [00:42:00] but yeah, the smaller changes are a lot more tolerable and you're able to kind of keep that learning pattern in there a little bit better.
Jon: Um, you've talked a lot about campaign segmentation. That's one of the core components of a good account, really across any platform, but arguably specific, specifically for Facebook, where you do have a lot of creative coming in and out.
Do you have any tips on how to, you know, set that up for success from day one, knowing that you're gonna be making some of these shifts and changes in creative, maybe text budget? Um, any tips there?
Michelle: Yeah, I think the, in the way that we're, we're talking about algorithms and that kind of stuff is that the bid strategies and all of the different algorithms that go into every decision about when you get served in the Facebook auction are going to be better if you have more data.
So if you're able to keep things consolidated and have all of your conversions performing in one place, you're probably going to be better off performance wise. Now, if you [00:43:00] have the need. For internally being able to say, this audience performed better than this audience performed better than this audience, then you're gonna have to have them broken apart because you cannot get audience insights of performance at a more specific level in the Meta Ads platform.
So they've just got everything rolled up together. Um, so it depends on what you need to report on. And I would say that if you need super granular performance of certain things, it would almost be a better idea for you to try to coach your organization or your client out of that. Um, because odds are consolidation is probably going to be a good thing for you, especially if you keep hitting that learning limited phase or if you're stuck in the learning phase.
Um, that's something that I try to stay out of as much as possible. As we're talking about the algorithm being really delicate, um, that is one of those areas where it's basically telling you I don't quite have enough to work on and I'm gonna get less efficient if you don't fix something. So usually try to stay away from the learning phase if [00:44:00] I can.
Jon: Yeah, that's, that's great advice. I think we've definitely found that being in some cases less targeted actually allows the, the model to perform much better, um, to your point. So just more and more, more data, um, that get to those learnings much faster. Um, which, which again, for us who've been doing this for a really long time is somewhat counterintuitive to what we've sort of grown up doing.
Um, and you're right, it is tough to sort of translate that to clients, especially if they've been doing this for a long time, right? They're under the same methodology and mindset. So, um, so learning curve for everyone. Um, but maybe that's a good segue into the future. Um, so automation definitely not going away.
Um, you know, how do you see automation impacting what we do in the future? Are you using more AI tools? Are you. Maybe getting more lenient with, you know, letting the campaigns optimize [00:45:00] themselves. Like how are you thinking about this and a space that's changing so quickly?
Michelle: Yeah, I think I'm, I'm doing a bit of both of those things.
So in a lot of ways I'm trying to utilize some of these tools to help take off some of the tasks that just take a long time and a lot of brainpower for pretty menial tasks. Um, one of the easiest ones is ad copy. If I can have chat. GPT, just the most simple tool. If I tell it I have to write Google ads for.
This landing page, here are my character limits. Give me 50 headlines, 20 descriptions. Then I become an editor, not a writer. And that takes way less brain power for me. I'm more of a numbers person, so it's much easier for me to automate that type of creative aspect. Now if you really like doing that and you're good at it, maybe you keep writing the ads, but you tell Google or you tell one of the AI tools out there, I downloaded this performance report.
Here's the performance compared to last month. Write a report for me for my clients. I don't wanna do it. And then you become the editor of the [00:46:00] report. So find the kind of menial daily tasks that can be automated, that you can have some oversight over. And then let them do that. Um, that just saves time.
And then you become a more strategic thinker rather than just somebody actually clicking the buttons all the time. Every day you get a little bit more 80 20 on that one. Um, but when it comes to the AI in the platform, I definitely have gotten more into the mode of you need to just keep it on, uh, kind of a loose grip, if you will.
If you try and stranglehold stuff, like when our essays, responsive search ads first came out and everybody was like, well, I can have a minimum of three headlines, two descriptions. I'm gonna pin them all in the same spot, and then I've got expanded text ads. It's like, okay, but Google's not gonna like that for very long.
And they basically just throttle your ads when that happens 'cause they don't have as many options to go with. So then you just don't get served as much. Um, it doesn't benefit you to be extremely. Tight on a lot of these, uh, [00:47:00] algorithmic pieces. So give it a little bit of run room, but always check in and if you need to pull back, you can pull back and then expand again later.
Maybe you needed to add more negative keywords than you thought, or you needed to exclude a certain audience. Something like that. There's always optimizations you can make to reign it back in. Um, but in a lot of ways, like you were talking about with Facebook, the same is true for Google. If you've got good conversion volume, you might be surprised where they can find good quality customers that will take the conversion actions, even if they didn't have any of the indicators that we could have targeted through either detailed demographics or any of like the search themes or audiences or something like that.
Maybe we couldn't find them, but based on this series of 50 clicks and 20 searches that they did on Google a month ago, they knew that they were ready to buy a car or something, you know? So there's a lot of behind the scenes that goes into it that you kind of just have to trust but verify. I
Jon: think one thing that's interesting about.
AI mode in general and sort of the insertion of ads there is, there appears to be a [00:48:00] very, uh, deep personalization component of what is returned in AI mode. Do you foresee a, a scenario where Google maybe takes that, I don't know, maybe takes a lot of our targeting capabilities away in favor of what they already know, um, and basically just says, you know, what do you want to be served for?
And just serves it when they think it's the right thing to do.
Michelle: I feel like in some ways there's already that ability in there. Like that's kind of how Performance Max is to some degree. And that's, you know, that's kind of where some of the AI Max stuff is going anyway. I think the biggest things, as long as they give us the ability to say like, actually no, that's not what I wanna be on, then that'll still be all right.
Um, that think. If we're able to have those types of targets and they can find new people that are performing well, great. As long as we've got the ability to rein it back in, I think that's gonna be my, my biggest thing. I don't [00:49:00] necessarily foresee Google just saying, what do you wanna sell? We'll sell it.
You don't have any control. I think right now they'll say, what do you wanna sell? You upload your shopping list and they'll have an automated PAX campaign. Um, but I don't necessarily see them taking everything else away. If anything in the, um. In the kind of AI mode overview, that personalization piece, what I'm more imagining is that those text customizations that we talked about earlier, they'll probably digest your landing page and focus on the certain features and benefits that that person might want in the copy versus what somebody else might want.
They might focus on a different aspect based on the searches they've done and the content they've reviewed and that sort of thing. So they might be able to sell your product or service in a more compelling way with different ad copy because they know what that person wants and they understand your landing page well enough to put together compelling ad copy.
I, I feel like that's probably the, the first iteration of kind of how that would work.
Jon: Yeah, that's, that's really smart about [00:50:00] the ad copy. That makes total sense. Um, and seems like an area where they probably have the most experience already piecing things together, so it feels like that's a natural, uh, natural translation.
Um. Maybe a question for folks who haven't been in this industry for a long time, there is just so much noise around. Do you have any tips on how to sort of filter through what is useful versus snake oil versus things that maybe are less impactful?
Michelle: Oh man, that's a tough one because it's kind of like I can look at something and I can go, that's crap.
But I couldn't necessarily articulate why. It's just the experience part of it, of knowing why something is crap. Um, I would probably have to say if you hear, if anybody is selling you something that is like, this is the guaranteed way, it's g if anything is guaranteed, cut it, it's out. Nope, that's not it.
That's crap. Nothing is guaranteed. Um, if [00:51:00] you find something and somebody's promoting a tactic or a tool or a feature or something like that, research it. If nobody else is talking about it. It's probably also still crap. My guess is that if there's nothing really new under the sun, I know there's like black hat and gray hat, SEO and you could do all this kind of stuff and be like, get away with things.
This is an ad platform where they provide the toggles, like you can't hack it really. Um, the thing that I always loved is one of my marketing professors in college was like, subway is the greatest selling feature. 'cause you think you're making this super custom sandwich, but they provided you the ingredients to make it with you can't go off the reservation with that.
So it's the same way in Google Ads and Facebook. You can come up with as much customization as you want, but there's not a way to hack anything. You literally can't. So if anything is about hacking, don't, don't listen to it. It's probably crap.
Jon: I love that. Um, very, very good advice. One, one question before we jump to our rapid [00:52:00] fire round.
Uh, I was going through your YouTube channel and you guys were talking about Reddit ads. I think like five or six years ago, like basically early, early on. Um, and I've been a Reddit user for 17 years at least. I had a username. I've only really gotten active probably in the last like year and a half, but it's a fascinating platform.
But I've also heard it's extremely difficult to advertise on. Are you guys doing? Are you guys doing a lot of media there and are you seeing success?
Michelle: We don't end up running a lot of media because it is such a hard place to advertise to. You kind of need to have the right type of brand knowing who their target audience is on Reddit, because if you go in and you're trying to sell something and you don't fit the vibe of that thread, you are gonna get trolled so freaking hard.
And it is worse for your brand to go in there and do it poorly than it is to go in there and just, that would be to just not do it at all. So in most instances, we don't end up running a lot of Reddit because we can't [00:53:00] get. The right combination of a selling point with the content that matches the content that's already on Reddit to where it would be something that would actually engage with people.
But in the instances that we have run back in the past, um, we have seen some pretty good performance out of it and being able to find kind of some of those like top to mid funnel folks when it's coming to any different purchases. So it's usually not bottom of the funnel, but you've gotta actually be useful and helpful.
You cannot just go in there selling. Um, it's just, it's gonna run flat every time. I, I,
Joe: I'll share similarly, we've been trying to, John and I both use Reddit a lot per, we've been trying to persuade clients to try it. Uh, it o it seems to only work for us for upper funnel campaigns. Um, but another thing we've been experimenting with is like brand advocates.
So some front, so rather than the company joining conversations, it's a person and it seems to be a little bit more, um. Successful. Still, still, still feeling this [00:54:00] out with Reddit though, but it's a, just an incredible platform.
Michelle: Yeah, I would say that that message holds for everything. We already talked about LinkedIn and having your, like the thought leadership ads, that kind of stuff.
Things just usually come better from people than they do from brands. Like the messaging is usually just more accepted. Um, but it's gotta be authentic or else it's not gonna land well in pretty much any platform.
Jon: Yeah. Um, alright, I know we're bumping up against time. Um, let's jump to a quick couple of rapid fire questions if that works for you.
Michelle: Absolutely. I'm long-winded though, so rapid fire probably won't work too terrible. Well,
Jon: well maybe the question will be short. The response can be as long as you want. Oh. Uh, so if you could give one piece of advice to your younger self, maybe starting in PPC today, what would it be?
Michelle: Whew. Great question.
That it, I mean, it's probably gonna be just absorb everything you can read everything. Um, make sure that you find the industry experts and see what they're saying about stuff and [00:55:00] test it out for yourself. Um, and even that might be part of it. If you have the ability, doing things yourself is gonna be the best way to try and test stuff out and learn.
Because like I was talking earlier about knowing what's crap and what's not. Your spidey sense, get gets built up for a campaign, for an account for the industry by doing it, not by just observing. So the more you're able to do and be hands on, especially in the beginning, the better off you'll be. Use the automations and stuff later on, but be hands on to start.
Jon: Yeah. Love that. Um. So much, so much experiences just seeing the mistakes or seeing the data. Yeah. Um, most common conversion tracking mistake that you come across,
Michelle: not having conversion tracking. It just doesn't, it just don't have it. Or the one that, uh, befuddles everybody more often than not, is not having the simplest, uh, dedicated thank you page.
It's the easiest way to set things up. If somebody fills out a form, send them to a [00:56:00] thank you page. I, I don't even care if the content on the thank you page is exactly the same as the homepage. Make it a different URL. It's very simple. It's very easy, but too many people try to use iframes and all this kind of stuff, and it always breaks the tracking and it just messes it up.
Just do the simple thing. Send people to a different page no matter how uns slick it is, and just deal with it.
Jon: Yes. I hate to thank you. Or the, the submit buttons that just like you get this message at the top of the screen, no one ever sees it. Ugh. What's one paid media trend that's overhyped for 2025 or maybe even 2026?
Michelle: Probably a lot of the AI stuff, if I'm honest. I think we've been living with it for so long and everybody, like I said earlier, people think that it's gonna come in and just be, check the box and you're done. But then also complain about it, taking your job, like just, you know, it's not gonna work that way.
You're gonna have to hold its hand. Don't worry about it doing any of that for the time being. Um, just lean into it, test it, figure it out just like you would any other feature. [00:57:00]
Jon: Got it. Um, regarding best practices, is there any sort of historical, best practice that you love to challenge?
Michelle: It probably ends up being to opt into any of the automation and stuff that's on there.
I, I really like having things be manual to start and then test any of the additional pieces after that. I think a lot of people are like, well, just let it run and then pull back if you need to. It's like, I'd rather go the other way. I'd rather be conservative to start and then expand as stuff ends up looking better.
Jon: Agreed. Um, we haven't talked about this much, but TikTok versus YouTube shorts for discovery. Um. You know, which one do you lean into?
Michelle: Depends on the audience. So if you're trying to sell something that's a little quicker, buy that sort of thing. And you've probably got a younger audience. I would say TikTok probably makes the most sense if you've got somebody who's trying to like research more and trying to learn a little bit more.
Usually an older male audience is gonna be on YouTube, um, unless it's kids on their tablet. Um, but I usually let all of my [00:58:00] platform decisions be made by what my targeting options are and how big my audience is there. So every account type that is out there to my knowledge, is free to create. You can create a dummy campaign, find what all the targeting options are, see how big that target audience is, and then decide which one looks like it makes the most sense.
Jon: That's great advice. Um, alright, almost done. What's the fastest way to spot a poorly managed page search account when you're, uh, just digging into an audit?
Michelle: Usually has the least amount of segmentation in it. That's usually the first thing. If you've got one campaign and it's got a thousand keywords in it, it's probably not going very good.
So, um, I would say either that or a campaign or an account that has no search campaigns. Now that could just be based on your goal, but if you don't have stuff segmented out in a way that is logical and makes sense, that's one of the biggest triggers that would mean that you just haven't really paid attention to it.
Joe: I got, I've got one more for the rapid fire. John, before we, before we close it up, who was the last [00:59:00] professional golfer that you were excited and went outta your way to watch?
Michelle: Oh man, that's been a bit, um huh. Went outta my way to watch. I don't know. The one, the one that always comes to mind from back when I was a kid was Phil.
So it's been, it's been a long time since I went like outta my way to watch something. But I will still remember when he won his first masters and that was just, that was awesome. 'cause I'd been cheering for him the whole time up until that. So when he finally actually broke through and won something, that was awesome.
Joe: Are you left-handed? Is that why you love him so much? No,
Michelle: couldn't tell you why. Just like being a kid, you watch something, it's like whoever caught your eye first for whatever reason, and it's like, well, that's my person. It's like, why? I don't know. Just, just is.
Jon: That's a great question to end on. Um, well, before we really go, uh, let our audience know where they can find you.
Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. So my only social media platform at this point personally is LinkedIn. So you can find me on LinkedIn. I am Michelle, MSEM, um, and you can find [01:00:00] all of our YouTube videos, all that kind of stuff at Paid Media Pros on YouTube. We also have a website that has nothing to do with our offerings and services, that sort of thing.
It's kind of just a bare bones piece about the videos. So, um, you can check that out if you want to, but, um, I'm actually gonna be in, uh, San Diego in September. I don't know when this comes out, but we'll be speaking at hero Comp there. So, um, that's probably the best place to find me.
Jon: Okay. I actually saw that you were speaking there.
Are you speaking in Brighton as well? Because they're, aren't they like right after each other? Okay.
Michelle: No, they're at the same time just in different rooms and the same thing. So they're basically like a co-mingled PPC and SEO conference.
Jon: Oh. Well, Michelle Morgan, everyone, this has been a great conversation.
Lots of, uh, good tips and insights. Thanks again for joining us on the Page two podcast, and if you enjoyed the show, please remember to subscribe, rate, and review. We'll see you next [01:01:00] time.