In the Season 4 premiere of the Page 2 Podcast, Jon Clark and Joe DeVita sit down with Nick LeRoy—longtime SEO consultant, newsletter publisher, and founder of SEOJobs.com. Known for his weekly SEO for Lunch newsletter and no-BS take on the industry, Nick shares what SEO looks like in a post-rank-tracking, AI-driven future. From acquiring and scaling a subreddit to reviving link building the right way, this episode covers strategy, community, and the raw truth about attribution in SEO today.
https://page2pod.com - In Episode 76 of the Page 2 Podcast, we're joined by SEO consultant, writer, and Reddit community wrangler Nick LeRoy.
As the first episode of Season 4, this one hits hard with fresh takes on what SEO looks like in 2025. Nick dives into the evolution of his weekly newsletter SEO for Lunch, owning and optimizing SEOJobs.com, and why Reddit may be the new frontier for organic visibility.
We also talk AI overviews, enterprise link building, and why SEO can no longer “polish the turd.”
🧩 In this episode:
• The origin and pivot of Nick’s SEO for Lunch newsletter
• Why SEOJobs.com was born out of frustration with job searches
• How Nick took over the r/SEOJobs subreddit (without spending a dime)
• The state of link building today—and why it’s resurging
• Using affiliate and PR channels to win in AI-driven search
• Why SEO can’t “save” bad products or businesses anymore
• Why “trust me, bro” attribution doesn’t cut it in the boardroom
• The risk of tying SEO measurement too tightly to organic channel data
• How Reddit traffic is affecting visibility—and why it’s now an organic channel
• What SEOs need to do to survive the AI shift in 2025
Nick delivers a refreshingly candid perspective on what it takes to stay relevant in a post-AI, post-rank-tracking world.
🎧 Listen & Subscribe:
Be sure to follow the Page 2 Podcast on your favorite platform, and leave a review if this episode gave you a fresh perspective on SEO's evolving role.
📎 Mentioned Links & Resources:
• Nick LeRoy’s Official Website
• SEO for Lunch Newsletter
• SEOJobs.com – Marketing Job Board
• r/SEOJobs Subreddit
• Follow Nick on LinkedIn
• Follow Nick on Twitter/X
Jon Clark (0:1.288)
Welcome to the page two podcast episode number 76. And the first episode of season four, today's guest is someone whose name will be familiar to a lot of folks in the SEO space, Nick Leroy. He's been a consistent voice in the industry, often offering some spicy, if not controversial takes on hot topics. He's worn many hats over the years and we're excited to talk through some of the newer ventures this afternoon, especially around Reddit.
ah But rather than run for the full list, I'll let him share his own journey. Nick, welcome to the show.
Nick LeRoy (0:33.790)
Yeah, thank you both so much for inviting me. Like I said, I'm excited to talk about this because there's no rules for all these efforts we got to do outside of rank for Google. And that's what it's going to take. So quick recap, my elevator pitch is I'm an independent SEO consultant. I spent the first 10 years working agency side. And I just wrapped up my fifth year of being freelance full time.
which is exciting and terrifying at the same time. ah As you guys had mentioned, I ah write a weekly newsletter called the SEO for lunch in which I just did like a fresh pivot. It used to be more of a recap for those who are already signed up, but now definitely check it out because it's a lot more of what we called previously Nick's take. So it's basically just my spicy take unfiltered. And you know what, because I don't have an employer outside of myself.
Nobody's going to yell at me for saying things out loud. Last but not least, I also own SEOjobs.com, which is kind of funny given the freelance rule, but that stemmed, and we'll talk about it more, stemmed from personal experience on my end and a much needed solution for an area the industry struggles to fulfill.
Jon Clark (1:33.991)
Yeah
Jon Clark (1:53.810)
Yeah, I mean, there's so much there that I want to dive into. um Maybe we start with the SEO jobs um evolution, right? So ah as I recall, just sort of things that you've posted online, um you used to be on the agency side um and went through a layoff. Is that right?
Nick LeRoy (2:16.850)
Yep, I've been through two firings, unfortunately. We'll call it what it is.
Jon Clark (2:21.468)
Yes, me as well, ironically. Yeah. ah So I'm curious about the SEO jobs. So when you were laid off, was it an immediate sort of move into, I want to do freelance moving forward or was SEO jobs sort of an outcome of trying to apply for other roles that you just weren't getting and you're like, need a better solution here.
Nick LeRoy (2:42.846)
So it's the latter. So I will just say quickly, you know, the first job where unfortunately I was let go, I was very lucky in the sense that I was able to tap my network because you know, they say your network is your net worth. And I fortunately was in a new job sitting at the desk within three weeks collecting severance and a new paycheck for a little while. So that worked out pretty well. And then we got into COVID.
Jon Clark (2:56.936)
That's right.
Nick LeRoy (3:11.736)
And unfortunately, this business had been impacted and SEO was just a very small part of a large oh company that was lot more into loyalty and traditional marketing. So unfortunately, my whole team was more or less cut. And I went on my journey of just, again, tackling who in my network do I know, had some interviews, going through what is a horrible experience anytime someone does it.
a search for an SEO job on LinkedIn or Indeed, because what do we always see? We see, you know, Java developer, three quarters of way down, there's a bullet that says, if you know SEO, fantastic, it's a bonus, right? Yeah, so ah long story short, so I made the leap at that point for freelancing, which I'm sure we'll talk a bit more. But I had an opportunity, you know, a guy named Peter Askew had reached out, you know, many know him as the onion guy.
Jon Clark (3:52.155)
Yeah, it's another bonus, right?
Nick LeRoy (4:9.076)
because he owns onions.com and Vidalia Onions. And he had actually bought SEO jobs.com and kind of rebuilt it. And he was looking for somebody to partner with that has a little bit more visibility, won't say like credibility, but visibility in the industry. And we started working together. Long story short with that is love Peter, but he had an opportunity to actually buy back a project he regretted selling.
Jon Clark (4:9.960)
Mm-hmm.
Nick LeRoy (4:38.800)
So I took that as an opportunity to buy him out. He was able to go into a project that he's very passionate about. And then I was able to just kind of give it my all for SEO jobs. And now it's been like two or three years.
Jon Clark (4:53.224)
Yeah, I was going to ask how long so two or three years of five years total freelancing two or three years managing seojobs.com. Um, and then where does SEO for lunch sort of fit into that? Uh, that's even older, right?
Nick LeRoy (5:6.836)
Correct. So this one has a little bit of a fun story. I'll try to keep it shortish, but I've been writing for eight years, you know, plus it was like 432 issues, I think was the last one, which was funny because the way I, again, I like the spicy take it people might have seen on LinkedIn, I wrote something like 432 issues down the toilet, you know, because making a pivot, you know, was
Jon Clark (5:11.856)
Ha
Jon Clark (5:30.588)
Yeah, yeah.
Nick LeRoy (5:35.006)
crazy, but we could talk about more about that. think it was good. But long story short for that one was it originally was a recap of just like industry updates. And the story behind that was I had while I was working in these agencies, I had some clients where I was working directly with like CEOs and BPs. And as we all know, they only have about this much space in their head to think about SEO, not because they don't care.
but because they have 32 different things that are juggling in the air. And I had one leader just come to me like, and she's amazing for this. And she just says like, Nick, I trust you, but I'm gonna tell you that I don't know SEO and I don't really care to like learn it. So like, I need you to help me understand like, what should I be looking for? How do know my team is doing well? How do I hold you accountable?
So what I ended up doing was I just started sending her an email once every couple of weeks, just being like, look at these three links. Google says there's an update. This industry veteran says they found a lot of success doing this and we are doing that. And it was just kind of a good way to do that. And then it turned into, I should write this and distribute it to my team. And then it was like, you know what?
We are all lazy individuals as a whole. Why don't I blast it out to everybody and anybody who wants it? And secretly, it was holding me accountable because we know as SEOs, like the biggest risk to our jobs is like not staying up to date. So by putting this all together, it forced me to stay up to date and not just rely on the knowledge that I had at that time. So again, fast forward eight years later.
And in my opinion, there's a couple other individuals who are doing something very similar to what SEO for lunch was, but much better. And so I wanted just an opportunity to kind of pivot and rely more on my voice than being the guy that kind of curates everybody else's voice.
Jon Clark (7:46.162)
Yeah, love that. was thinking about, um, for years, still even, um, I have a uh feed lead list of all the RSS feeds and, once or twice over the weekend, I'll just sort of riff through it. And, um, unfortunately I'm still old school. I don't like reading so much on a device. So I'll email it to myself. Now my email box is filled with a whole bunch of emails that I still need to go back and read. basically the, the email version of having a hundred tabs open. Um,
Nick LeRoy (8:6.984)
you
Jon Clark (8:16.434)
But uh I'm really curious about, so eight years of content, right, that you've just been publishing over time. um I'm curious if there's a way or have you thought about, I'm sure you have, using AI to sort of ah utilize that eight year, um yeah, library of content to assist maybe with some of the spicy takes or to sort of add some
Joe DeVita (8:37.410)
Library.
Nick LeRoy (8:41.086)
So I'm.
Jon Clark (8:45.544)
color to the spicy takes that are going to be coming out of it in the future.
Nick LeRoy (8:49.896)
I think there probably is a way to at least get concepts and ideas to be able to talk about. But again, the biggest problem with being a curated newsletter is none of this is like your original writing or thinking. And it was so timely. I had to make sure that I was writing it like the day before because I look silly if there's a Google algorithm update that was announced two days ago and it's not in that email.
Jon Clark (9:4.722)
Got it.
Jon Clark (9:18.460)
Alright.
Nick LeRoy (9:18.494)
So that's one of the benefits that I'm looking forward to with this new format is I have like six articles as drafts right now and they're not finished. But I love the idea of like if life gets busy, I could just be like this one, let's QA it. Boom, it's out.
Jon Clark (9:35.196)
Yeah. Yeah. I was going to ask about that too. So, um, I've been trying to ramp up, um, my sharing on LinkedIn. It's something I've, you know, when, when you sort of start a business or you start even freelancing, you're so busy doing the work that oftentimes the marketing of, you know, yourself or even the agency, um, sort of takes a backseat and, um, Joe and I really sort of thought.
more strategically around like being more visible, sharing the successes that we're having. I'm curious how you approach that, right? Like coming up with the ideas and building out that sort of inventory of content that you can sort of pluck from. Are you only doing that for the SEO for lunch side? you, cause I know you blog and also do a lot of other webinars and things like that as well. Like how do you keep that inventory sort of going?
Nick LeRoy (10:25.492)
Yeah.
So, you know, I would think it's not as structured and forward thinking as it might come off. I think the best way for me to explain it to you is I kind of have a reverse mindset of an entrepreneur. Most people are just like, pour the gas, grow as fast as you can and like make the cash while it's there and tomorrow will be tomorrow, right? And I kind of live in this idea and you can tell this is
me still dealing with being let go and having resources taken away. I take a very defensive approach to my business. You know, it's like I have a line item for like how much I need to make to be able to feed my kids, you know, and you'll keep the house over and then everything after that is just kind of a bonus. But I realized too, one of the limits for being an independent consultant is
I can't work with a dozen clients. So while I'm very intentional in making sure that each of my engagements are fairly weighted the same from like a revenue perspective, I'm always thinking about it only takes me losing or gaining two clients to completely make or break the year. And that goes into answering your question. So what I have done is just kind of baked
Jon Clark (11:48.520)
Interesting. Yeah.
Nick LeRoy (11:55.442)
my presence online into the daily routine. And I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that people make, whether they're going on their own, building an agency, is they're only involved online when they want something. And it's super obvious. We've all seen that. It's like, of sudden, this person that you remember talked to two years ago, and they're posting on LinkedIn, it's like, okay, they're looking for a new role. Cool for you, but like, it's very clear.
Jon Clark (12:10.312)
Yeah.
Jon Clark (12:20.442)
Alright.
Yeah.
Nick LeRoy (12:23.794)
So again, with all of that, you know, I'm a big fan of add value, do favors with kind of nothing in return, knowing that eight out of 10 times, it does come back full circle.
Jon Clark (12:37.788)
Yeah, I think, you know, it's, really interesting to SEO industry for so long. uh Um, I felt like it was very closed. Like as soon as someone finds something that works, it's like, I'm going to hug this as tight as I can and, know, Exploit it if you will, until, you know, it gets banned or whatever. Now I feel like the mantra is very different, right? It's sort of like oversharing. Um, and you'll sort of reap the benefits of that.
Nick LeRoy (12:48.388)
Yeah.
Nick LeRoy (12:54.173)
milk it.
Jon Clark (13:3.560)
rather than sort of keeping these things close to the vest, which is great for the industry. And I think it's evolving so quickly. You know, even things that are being shared are almost outdated just because of technology, AI, et cetera.
Nick LeRoy (13:16.116)
Yeah, and the reality too is, sorry guys, I must be getting a package up so can hear my dog barking. The reality is, you know, I did a fair amount of affiliate marketing earlier in my career, and it was amazing. You know, I was very vocal back then about, you know, anyone who says buying links doesn't work is just like a puppet for Google. And you know, but the reality is, is like, fast forward 15 years, here we are in 2025.
Jon Clark (13:22.066)
Yeah uh
Nick LeRoy (13:44.390)
It's not that you can't manipulate Google. We still see it all the time, but it arguably takes more effort to manipulate Google than it does to actually create a valuable product or service and then be rewarded by Google with visibility. And I'll put the big asterisks because now we're putting AI overviews on everything, which is stealing our visibility. But I do feel strongly about that.
Jon Clark (14:5.764)
Yeah.
Jon Clark (14:11.272)
um I love the double click into the link building side of things. I feel like it's. um
It's been a consistent topic, but I feel like the conversation has sort of waned on link building maybe over the last like two years. And now, you know, we're starting to think through like how to influence, um, LLM results and, know, being included in your competitive set in these listicles and things like that. And we're sort of reverting back to in some cases, like old school link development. Love to hear your thoughts on, you know, how, or if you're seeing.
um kind of a Renaissance around link building, if that makes sense, or sort of how you're thinking about link building in today's world.
Nick LeRoy (14:52.776)
Yeah. So I'm glad you brought it up. I do have a very spicy take on link building. I think a lot of people claimed it's not necessary. It's a low ranking factor. And the reason they do that is not because they necessarily believe it. They convince themselves of that because it's not scalable. It's not cheap and it's not quick. So anybody who is business minded sees it as an incredibly negative ROI.
Jon Clark (15:16.221)
Yeah.
Nick LeRoy (15:21.992)
with no way to be able to say, know, hiring people even at the junior level to spam the internet until I get a bunch of links. And then it may or may not correlate with increase in visibility. But by the way, we're jamming out new content, we're building out the brand, like nobody likes it for that aspect. And that is why Google relies on it as one of its signals. But I think where I'm at now is I'm talking a lot to brands about
Jon Clark (15:28.945)
Yeah.
Nick LeRoy (15:51.764)
leveraging not only PR, but one unlock has just been even like their affiliate, you know, relationships. Because as these LLMs and AI bots are crawling the internet, we have to remember they're kind of the equivalent of like the 2005 Google bot. So they're not differentiating at this point. When they mention, you know, Nick's black hat, you know, it doesn't matter if it's an affiliate link, a direct link or a citation.
Jon Clark (15:59.523)
Oh sure.
Jon Clark (16:9.224)
That's right.
Nick LeRoy (16:21.724)
what what those bots are seeing is New York Times is writing about in their best you know place to buy a black hat you know and then you go to USA Today and then you go to you know Nick's little blog.com and it's like it's just that consistency and again because I suspect them to get much smarter over time just like Google was but right now it's just like get your brand out there get your products talked about
And I think that the biggest hack to that is, you know, paying for Lynx, paying for advertising, you know, doing an affiliate, you know, offering, because now, and you know, I don't think anybody can say they know definitively how to do AI, despite all those people on LinkedIn that are now AI experts. But, you know, I think again, that's what we know is kind of moving the needle right now. So to answer your question, I don't think Lynx
have ever truly died, but I think that there's a renewed interest in it. And because AI is, you know, the shiny object that all leadership is interested in, we can almost pitch it as an AI benefit to get the buy-in knowing fully well that it's going to help for SEO as well.
Jon Clark (17:37.926)
Yeah, it's definitely an interesting angle to pitch it from that perspective, because I think you get the decision-makers ear much easier if you can apply or sort of add AI, you know, slash benefit to it. um So how do you, I guess, how do you, as a freelancer, how do you approach, you know, trying to get your clients to buy in on link building? they?
And you know, if you don't want to share these details, that's fine. But I'm curious, do you have like a separate budget that you sort of work through with the client? Like we expect you'll need X number of links or, um, you know, some sort of approach like that. And so here's a budget specifically for that, or are you investing more on the content side with the goal of acquiring links through that, that content, uh, asset or sort of how do you approach that with your, with your freelance clients?
Nick LeRoy (18:27.944)
Yeah. So I'm very fortunate in the sense that I tend to work almost exclusively with enterprise companies. So they're largely known brands and many times they have their own like PR departments. So my role is more so to just kind of play a conductor. You know, it's like more content, fix this technical, you know, PR, you know, help over here.
So I cheat a little bit by having that strong opinion of like, links are great, but everybody's lazy. When I'm sitting there going out and just like, literally just trying to squeeze each lever a little bit harder. But what I will say is, and I think this is what a lot of SEOs are going to learn this year in 2025 and beyond, is SEO willingly or unwillingly has always been siloed, or you can kind of put on your own island. It's like, kind of go do your voodoo magic and whatever we get is.
Jon Clark (19:1.874)
Alright.
Nick LeRoy (19:24.542)
free traffic. The reality now is your SEO partners need to be integrated with all your other channels. Because while when we're measuring it, it doesn't show you in that drop down organic search as your performance. But we understand that PR, they're already screaming and providing value for the brand. Let's make sure that they are linking.
Joe DeVita (19:25.335)
Mm-hmm.
Jon Clark (19:25.618)
Mm-hmm.
Nick LeRoy (19:53.094)
And like not and most of them know to add links. Most of them don't think as far as let's link deeper into the site. You know, they might just do, you know, the homepage or one example that I've done is one of my clients, I had them build like uh profile pages for all of their like C-suite because they often get interviewed on their sites. And then these people don't always want to link to a commercial page, which makes sense.
Jon Clark (20:19.971)
Oh, sure.
Nick LeRoy (20:21.256)
But I can get them to, I can have their PR person say, when you reference our CEO, can you link to their profile page? Because what that is, is it's an alternative to linking to like their LinkedIn profile. So that's just an example of like where link building is incorporated. I tend to try to just squeeze a little bit extra juice out of whatever is there. Because I'm a big believer that there isn't any one or two links you can get that helps you win.
It's just like consistent, scalable best practices. I'm a big 80-20 model person.
Jon Clark (20:56.221)
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that. think one thing that we found working with PR companies is that boilerplate that sort of lives at the bottom of the press release is often like years old and it's gone through numerous rounds of iteration and legal review before it's approved. And so what we focused on is coming up with a couple of different variants of that boilerplate, uh all of which use different anchor texts linked to different
Nick LeRoy (21:17.012)
You
Jon Clark (21:28.508)
deep areas of the site and then sort of rotating those, right? So maybe it's once a quarter, know, option three gets plugged in there. And so at least you're not always linking to the naked URL or, you know, the version without the HTTPS, which is so common. So at least we can sort of manage for how those links are being applied, which, you know, is a small win, but we'll take it.
Nick LeRoy (21:30.471)
I love it.
Nick LeRoy (21:40.489)
Right.
Nick LeRoy (21:53.670)
Absolutely. And here's one hot take and this is a sword that I will die on and people get really upset about it. So here's your snippet for, you know, getting people to watch this whole episode. But SEO, historically, you used to be able to build a business on the back of SEO. And then once you get all the visibility and traffic, you could kind of then be like, oh, now we're going to put the effort into the business and make it worthwhile for people to convert. You know, think about
Joe DeVita (22:3.757)
Hehehehe
Jon Clark (22:4.328)
You
Nick LeRoy (22:23.730)
You cannot have a nerd wallet anymore today. If we go live with a million pieces of content, even if it's your best content in the world, you can't build off of the back of SEO. And now, like I said, it seems like a very small detail, but SEO can't create a business, but a business with really flipping good products and services results in good SEO.
All that being said is historically we could get clients, the hot take really is, and this is just me just saying out loud is, SEO used to be the towel that we could polish the turd with to turn it into a piece of gold. And that's not the case anymore. There is no amount of SEO to make a bad product, bad service, a unreputable or a hated brand, like do well.
Jon Clark (23:22.152)
mean, that's, that is definitely a spicy take. I'm curious, like, what do you think happens to sites like NerdWallet and some of these others that have gone public on the backs of, I mean, primarily content, right? I mean, do think they slowly die over time or?
Nick LeRoy (23:38.480)
not for the reasons that we are talking about. think there's other things that are of concern, but I tend to kind of believe that, oh, here's another, I'm gonna just throw it out there. I'm gonna put myself on the chopping block, but I personally kind of believe that there's almost like a legacy index. So it's like, if you built your site kind of in the heyday and then you have authority and you have the right clicks going in and out with that nav boost, then you,
Jon Clark (23:49.832)
Ha
Jon Clark (23:58.279)
Mm-hmm.
Nick LeRoy (24:6.484)
kind of just get to stay. And the best example I can give you is I worked with a job site once and we created millions of pages. All the category permutations with the logo or with the states and cities and all that fun stuff. Basically what Indeed and ZipRecruiter and LinkedIn do. Those guys all show up on page one. I could not get like more than 20 % of this client's pages to even get indexed.
Jon Clark (24:34.824)
Hmph.
Nick LeRoy (24:35.600)
And now, Grant, this was pre-AI uh days where you could probably stuff a bunch of content. But basically what I'm trying to say is if you kind of pass the quality threshold backdated maybe like five years, I think Google tends to give you that benefit of the doubt. But the quality threshold, the threshold in which you pass and get indexed is so much higher today than it ever was in the past. So I don't think
Jon Clark (24:51.612)
Interesting.
Nick LeRoy (25:2.792)
the nerd wallets, the wayfares, you know, and some of these amazing businesses that really were built off of SEO. I don't think they're in danger of Google just being like, oh, you're now de-indexed. I think the bigger issue is just continuing to be reliant on organic search to run your business. And I think both of them are doing better jobs of finding other sources.
Joe DeVita (25:26.198)
So don't let quantity get in front of quality. It seems like we're always having that tug of war with speed and output, but it feels like, I mean, you talk about it for link, you talk about it for link building, you could also talk about it for content development too. Try to always stay with quality first, building quantity over time.
Nick LeRoy (25:46.164)
100 % because the reality is and I even hate to admit this is SEO is now a vehicle to capture brand demand. So I would much rather people spend more time and again building out those services or products, whatever you're doing to add value and make your money. Double down there and not have 10 articles about you know, why your cat sleeps in a
you know, small bed, so you should buy my mattress. And you know, I mean, I'd be facetious, but we all know what we're talking and I'm guilty of it too. Like I come on these shows and I say stuff like this, but I have been the one that's like, here's a hundred topics that we need to cover. And it's more of a balance. I'm not saying don't do it, but the best analogy going back to it's like, you cannot use SEO as this cloth to turn a turd into gold anymore. You could in the past.
Joe DeVita (26:16.438)
Mm-hmm.
Jon Clark (26:17.116)
Ha ha.
Jon Clark (26:21.031)
Right.
Nick LeRoy (26:43.016)
But now it's a, it's not either or, or it's both. And that is why I believe one of the biggest things going into like 2026, the ethical people that have morals are going to tell some leads and prospects that SEO is not a good fit for them. And that's something that our industry does a really bad job of.
Joe DeVita (27:6.126)
Hmm.
Jon Clark (27:10.376)
Yeah.
Nick LeRoy (27:10.802)
We sign anybody who is willing to pay. And the cruel reality is, and I'm sure you guys have talked to these people, like there are companies that should not invest in SEO, either at all or yet. And one red flag I will give you, some of us have probably heard this before, I've had leadership come to me and say, if I don't turn the ship around in six months, this business is going under.
Jon Clark (27:39.538)
Hmm.
Nick LeRoy (27:39.644)
And the first thing that I say now is like SEO isn't your solution. And it's like, it's not because I don't want to help you or because, I don't believe in your business. It's just like, that's not how SEO works. You'd be much better off with your Hail Mary on your paid search or paid social, something where you can validate the success almost instantly.
Jon Clark (27:53.628)
Right.
Jon Clark (28:4.302)
just reading an article, I can't remember who wrote it. I'll find it and put it in the show notes, but it was almost taking the concept of product market fit with sort of like SEO demand fit. Like there isn't always going to be SEO demand for every industry or every product. And so I think you're hitting the nail on the head from the perspective of, you know, the ethical SEOs that are out there will be the ones who are saying, listen,
potential client, this is probably not a good fit for you. um There isn't that product market or that SEO market fit um in 2026 with how things are evolving. um So yeah, I think that's really interesting. if SEO wouldn't be a fit and they needed something in six months, would it be like a paid media uh approach or something like that?
Nick LeRoy (28:58.084)
So I mean again, you know my specialty is in SEO and I'm very intentional have a network of people that I can send them to for the other ones But the first thing that I always do is I send them to somebody who's you skilled in the SEO or sorry in the paid arena again, it's just that idea of You need fairly quick validation that your product or service or however you're making your revenue
is indeed valued by people. And I tell people this all the time too, if they reach out to me and say, you know, we just launched our new Shopify site, I've got the latest and greatest product that nobody's ever heard, but everybody's gonna want it. And I'm like, have you run any paid against it? Like, nope, because this is gonna be the next thing. And then they're like, oh, but by the way, I'm paying all the bills out of my personal savings account, so I need this to explode.
And which then I just basically say, again, it's not that SEO is not important. I think everybody should have their web presence optimized. However, the worst thing that you can do for your business is invest in SEO before your product or service is validated. And one thing that I feel like people should hopefully be taking this is realize how we're talking about SEO, but we're actually talking a lot more about building a business.
Jon Clark (29:55.184)
All right.
Jon Clark (30:25.522)
Mm-hmm.
Nick LeRoy (30:25.800)
because it goes back to what I'm saying. You have to build a business, have a world-class product or service, and then SEO is the result. It's no longer build this website on your exact match domain, wait for the traffic to come in, but realize it's not converting. So now we're gonna build a real service or product, and then we're all happy. Low risk, exceptionally a high reward, not a thing anymore, at least with SEO.
Jon Clark (30:53.734)
That's right. That's right. I'm, curious to get your take the circle back on your comment around, um, you know, SEO being sort of like a brand channel. I think there's been a lot of, um, uh, uh Mike King for one to sort of, um, you know, very vocal around his thoughts on, that application. Um, there's certainly folks on the other side who are saying, well, maybe not so much. I'm curious what, you guys think about, or how you think about, um, SEO as more of a
a brand play versus maybe performance like it was in the past.
Nick LeRoy (31:28.104)
Yeah, I think we're kind of splitting hairs and trying to come up with like new labels for what we have already done or should have done. Because I don't think the answer is one end or the other. This isn't billboard marketing where it's like a flat cost, you get what you get and you you look at it as a sunk cost. You don't know.
But we also know attribution is so often goofy, let alone the fact that it never gives the benefit of the doubt to a free channel. You know, things are messed up. my non-answer to your question is basically, think SEO is a good channel for capturing demand, but it is not a channel to build demand. So.
If you're building demand and you sell sponges and now you also rank for sponges, like as that demand for sponges go up, you know, it's like then SEO can help you capture it. You know, think about like the scrub daddy is what I'm thinking in the back of my head. It's like that brand capture of people doing, you know, scrub daddy, you know, obviously that's branded, but then the SEO play of scrub daddy versus whatever brands we've been buying that nobody knows, you know, over the years.
Those are SEO plays and they're capturing that visibility that brand demand for something that's growing and skyrocketing. How's that for a non-answer?
Jon Clark (32:57.629)
Right.
I mean, it was sort of a non-answer, but also a great answer. I mean, it makes a ton of sense. It almost goes back to the original reason for keyword research, which is uh you want to target keywords that have some sort of demand behind them, right? Because that's going to translate into traffic. then theoretically, if the site's structured well, you have calls to action, whatever, that will lead to a conversion. I think there's uh
Nick LeRoy (33:5.203)
you
Jon Clark (33:29.454)
I mean, that makes a ton of sense. Like you can't.
create a piece of content and then expect the demand to come. There needs to be some sort of mechanism that's driving that. And then when they go to search for that particular thing or brand, then the content is there. So yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
Joe DeVita (33:49.410)
I think it's really good business. It's really good business advice too. I wonder why more people starting businesses don't start with keyword research to say like, what is this business I want to get into? What is the demand behind it?
Nick LeRoy (34:2.590)
Right. Well, and again, I think that's just like the two different stepping stones. It's like if you are an entrepreneur and you're bootstrapping and you're doing it all yourself, like, yes, I do think that you should be able to go and do some preliminary market research. That's important. The other end, though, is like if you're paying for services and if you're bootstrapping, very likely you're in that part of the journey of I need to get ripped off once or twice before I invest properly.
But these SEOs aren't thinking like a business owner. And I'm not talking about the we are all family think like a business owner. I'm talking about what are the opportunities for this industry to solve? What are the biggest pain points? And then how are we leveraging these SEO tactics to again, capture that demand? Because I don't, I mean, and you'll notice that when we go back and listen to this,
I don't talk about keywords or keyword visibilities. I very specifically say topics. And it's not for semantics point, but really the best example is like nothing gets me on my tangent faster than when people ask me for like a keyword ranking report because you want to rank for cars and you're on page three forever. But that same page that's target for it.
ranks for 10,000 other keywords and you're getting all the traffic and you're making $10,000 a day, but you're gonna come back to me and say I'm not working because cars isn't ranking well.
Jon Clark (35:40.615)
Right.
Joe DeVita (35:41.698)
We do something similar, we call them themes. So we may say, you know, there are 500 keywords we think you should be ranking for, but there are really only eight themes. And we're gonna talk about themes when we talk about your reporting month over month over month.
Nick LeRoy (35:44.499)
Yep.
Nick LeRoy (35:56.604)
I love that. I'll give you guys just a uh quick story that kind of validates the theme approach. During COVID, because I'm an SEO dork, you know, and had extra time, you know, and as a uh later 30 year old male, it was only natural that I'd buy a trigger because that's, know, where I am in the era of my life, as my daughters would say. But with that, I couldn't just like smoke all this great food and not like
Jon Clark (36:16.848)
You
Nick LeRoy (36:25.140)
SEO it so I started taking pictures and then I created like a mini recipe site that was specific to like smoking food But the part that drives everybody nuts is I and and I love like SEMrush like I'm an ambassador for them But I didn't do a lick of keywords research. You know what I did. I went to the store I Picked up the meat that I thought was interesting and I wanted to pay for and whatever it was labeled as That's what my title tag was. So it was
Jon Clark (36:33.276)
Love that.
Nick LeRoy (36:54.974)
Bottom roast smoked by Traeger. You know, it was like, I just used that type of logic because yes, a bottom round roast could be called that. It could be three other things. But guess what? When you guys or your families are looking for what to eat and you're rummaging through the freezer and then you're like, I got this chunk of meat. Do you Google how do I cook this chunk of meat? Or do you go, oh, it's a sirloin and now you're saying like sirloin recipe ideas. So again,
That, my opinion, is one of the biggest gaps in our industry is people aren't thinking critically. They're going to SEMrush, they're typing in smoker, exporting 20 keywords, and then saying, we need to write 20 pieces of content for each of these keywords. Like, screw that.
Jon Clark (37:32.572)
Yeah.
Jon Clark (37:46.428)
Yeah. Instead of thinking about what's getting cooked on the smoker and then, you know, like more, uh, consumer applicable, you know, uh, scenarios, right? Like someone's to your point is going to be much more specific around what they're looking for. Um, then just generic smoker type terms, um, which would also be a lot more competitive, uh, to rank for anyway.
Nick LeRoy (38:9.404)
Exactly. It's amazing. I bought a I remember a Dungeness crab and I was like, can you smoke a crab? Like why the heck not try it's COVID. I got nothing else to do. And like all of a sudden I was getting like 2000 visits a month just to that like post, you know, and it was like, I never went into SEMrush to validate it, but I would never in my wildest dreams suspect that people were searching like smoked Dungeness crab.
Joe DeVita (38:37.240)
Can you do it successfully? Does it taste good?
Nick LeRoy (38:39.750)
It tasted fine, but did I, you know, lot of people brought up comments of like, how would this smoke get through the shells? Like, oh, that's a really good question, but I ate it and I'm here to survive or I'm here to talk. So, but my whole point is like, and this is no longer a secret, but the best non secret, you know, out there is go to Reddit. Like I don't care what topic and service you are providing.
Jon Clark (39:4.956)
Yeah.
Nick LeRoy (39:9.774)
Somebody's complaining about something like the world loves to complain. So go into Reddit and mine all those questions and complaints. And then you know, fuck the third party tools, write content that solves for that because I guarantee you regardless what these tools say, like that's the content that is going to drive a bunch of traffic and it's going to be the one that converts.
Joe DeVita (39:31.672)
John and I, John and I both spent a lot of time on Reddit. Maybe this is good time to segue into your recent acquisition.
Nick LeRoy (39:41.360)
Absolutely. I think for those, go ahead, Joe.
Joe DeVita (39:45.134)
We're just gonna ask, like, how did you do that?
Nick LeRoy (39:49.565)
So I would say I think I used the word acquisition Very intentionally to get people's opinion. So yes, I did acquire it like and for anyone who's not familiar You know, obviously run SEO jobs calm, but the SEO and me knows fairly not fairly We don't care like Google ranks read it for everything So now Google stealing all of my traffic, so I'm thinking
Jon Clark (39:58.322)
Ha.
Nick LeRoy (40:18.972)
Where is the traffic going to and we see reddit go like this. I was like, you know what? Maybe I should try to Get 1 % of the traffic that's going to read it. So being the reddit fanboy I was I just Changed the URL and typed in r slash SEO jobs Which is the subreddit and I had noticed that it had existed but there wasn't a post in like four years
So I was completely dormant and what did exist was just full of spam. And the first thing I did is, you know, on the right hand panel, it'll tell you who the moderators are. I sent a message to the moderator and just said, hey, I own SEO jobs. Like, is there any chance you want to collaborate on this? Because again, giving is good, right? But I didn't get any response. So I was just doing some research again, pain point of what happens if you're interested in a subreddit.
Jon Clark (40:58.792)
Right.
Nick LeRoy (41:16.872)
that's not being moderated and the moderator is not active. Well, little did I know there's a process for Reddit to basically assess a subreddit and you can basically take ownership of it. So because our SEO jobs hadn't been active for four years, I sent like three messages to the mod, because that's like part of the process and I documented it.
Jon Clark (41:34.908)
Interesting.
Nick LeRoy (41:46.300)
And then it basically was show all of this to Reddit. And one day I woke up and it was like, you are the mod for, you know, sub Reddit SEO jobs. So I have.
Joe DeVita (41:59.054)
So wasn't a million dollar purchase like we were thinking behind the scenes.
Jon Clark (42:1.544)
Ha ha ha ha. uh
Nick LeRoy (42:2.456)
No, like I said, you all know, I love my salacious headlines, but I did acquire it, just not in the sexy way that everyone thinks. But I do think that that's an opportunity. do think that there's, SEOs, like we need to think outside of Google. And this is just a good example. And I think we're going to get to the point where there's already a lot of like affiliate arbitrage with Reddit. But
Those are communities, those are people, and that's where you want to be. oh
Jon Clark (42:37.202)
I mean, I think there's an argument to be made that Reddit is, I mean, I think it's technically classified as like a social platform, but I think just because of its visibility, there's an argument to be made. is an organic channel, uh right? It takes up organic, know, positions in a search result, uh drives a ton of traffic. It's technically, I guess, referral traffic at that point, but can be
you know, very lucrative, as you mentioned from the affiliate side. um Easy, easier maybe to manipulate, right, buying votes and whatnot. But I,
Nick LeRoy (43:16.616)
Yeah. I think there's always the long term approach and there's always the short term approach. They both can get you to the same point. It's just is one long lasting or not.
Jon Clark (43:23.250)
Yeah.
Jon Clark (43:28.434)
So this whole thing is so fascinating to me. So um in fact, I was so inspired. I started the page two podcast uh Reddit channel. I have no idea if anyone will even join it, but I was like, even if I use it for testing at some point in the future, like I should just do this. So.
Nick LeRoy (43:44.498)
It should be like your social media handles now. It's like take your business and it's like you get your Twitter, your Facebook, your Instagram, and your subreddit. Make sure you're active so people like me don't go in and steal it from you,
Jon Clark (43:48.145)
Yeah.
Jon Clark (43:53.935)
and
Jon Clark (43:57.889)
Exactly, exactly. But I'm curious. um
Like how long was the process of like submitting your documentation to, and I'm sure this will vary, right? But I'm just curious, like what that timeline would even look like.
Nick LeRoy (44:9.326)
Oof. Yeah.
Nick LeRoy (44:15.570)
So it's a really hard question because I identified that it existed and for the longest time I was just like, oh shoot, like it doesn't exist. So then there was just kind of a period of time and then I like subscribed to it and then I'd think about it and go back and then I kind of put one-on-one together of like, nobody's here. So if we include the time of maybe like a week or two in between messaging the moderator,
Jon Clark (44:26.713)
Mm.
Nick LeRoy (44:44.500)
And then when I got access to it, maybe two months, like it really wasn't too long. I will say I don't know this for sure, but it's an asterisk on this is I did go all in. So I am a more casual, you know, where they call it, like when you just read all the comments, but you don't participate, you know, yes, a lot of her thinking, but my profile is like 20 years old.
Jon Clark (44:49.756)
Okay.
Jon Clark (45:6.396)
Like a lurker, not necessarily, yeah.
Jon Clark (45:14.076)
Yeah, mine's 17.
Nick LeRoy (45:14.766)
So I suspect, I don't know, but because I put the claim in, even though I don't have the post history, just I suspect that they probably put some sort of effort into is this person active, credible again. Again, I might be giving them way too much credit. And there's a lot of people that are telling me that like I screwed up bad because if they ever take down or say I'm spamming Reddit,
Jon Clark (45:35.790)
Haha.
Nick LeRoy (45:43.848)
Like it's gonna kill my username that's been tied. But the good news is because I'm a lurker, I guess I can uh just create a new one.
Jon Clark (45:48.762)
Oh, that's interesting.
Jon Clark (45:53.938)
Yeah, yeah, that's true. ah So what are your plans for it? you, I'm assuming you're already like posting and whatnot. Have you seen any success from it?
Nick LeRoy (46:3.760)
I would say mild success. So this is where I'm going to get in trouble. But I think I'm being a bit creative is because SEO jobs, we typically only post like two to five jobs per day. What I did is I Jimmy rigged a couple systems and API's so that when every job goes live, it gets posted automatically into the SEO jobs subreddit.
And it goes through my name as the moderator. So when you go into it, it's always like the name of the position, job description. And then I put a link to SEO jobs at the very top. And I basically say, apply here if interested. So I am seeing Reddit traffic, but I think this is a representation of say the 200 or 300 people that have recently joined.
Jon Clark (46:33.138)
Nice.
Nick LeRoy (47:2.940)
that are clicking on it versus like, you know, Reddit is now showing me on their homepage. But that is something that I want to test more is like, I'm even curious and I might throw a couple hundred bucks at it. Do Reddit ads just to build up visibility. It almost reminds me of like Facebook pages with the like button. I don't want to go all in because I fully expect that they'll turn the organic dial down. But talking about short term.
Jon Clark (47:3.026)
Got it.
Jon Clark (47:22.760)
Mm-hmm.
Nick LeRoy (47:31.174)
It's like for me and SEO jobs, I don't really need to sell the value of my service. The thing that's the most difficult for me is you either know about the site or you don't. I don't get a lot of people saying, I hate your site. You know, you should just go away. It's just like, oh, I never heard of it. So my marketing effort is a lot less SEO, but brand visibility.
So I'm screaming on it at LinkedIn and people think this guy's hocking his site again. And then go on Reddit and it's like, both know that, or we all know that you can't promote yourself. Trust me, the RSEO boys have gotten me twice because I'll post like interview question template that I have on the site. I have a mock interview simulator actually. And there was a post on like R big SEO that was literally like,
Jon Clark (48:24.817)
Mm-hmm.
Nick LeRoy (48:29.300)
going into an interview tomorrow, what should I be prepared for? And I wrote, focus more on being creative and explaining how you do it versus being able to answer a question. And then I said, however, if you truly want to memorize questions and answers, why don't you try out this mock interview? Oh, I got a nasty gram and DMs and like eliminated originally, but anyway, I'm going on and on there but.
I just think it's an opportunity again of we know Google is taking back some of the traffic. We can whine and cry on social media as much as we want. It's not going to change anything. So I think the responsible thing for us to do for our projects and our clients is to figure out where are your users going to. And I was just on a podcast a couple of days ago.
Jon Clark (49:11.080)
All right.
Nick LeRoy (49:26.098)
where I mentioned this, think where it becomes really hard is agencies and even myself, we write up the scope. And then our work is basically tied to Google, and then like measured by the success of organic channel. And I think the reality is, is like, we have to start having more open scopes and flexible because again, we talked about partnering with PR, we talked about, you know,
Jon Clark (49:43.023)
Right.
Nick LeRoy (49:54.740)
partnering with social media. These are all things that we talk about for distribution. But when you're a service provider, we all know that scope creep is like the biggest like risk to providing a service. But I think we need to get creative. And I think that's the direction SEO is going to. I'm calling it non paid marketing is how I'm referring to it to my clients. But that is how I'm getting around the fact that all of my clients their editorial content
Jon Clark (50:15.752)
Mm.
Nick LeRoy (50:23.686)
is down 30 % just like everybody else's. So what I'm doing is, let's better define what it is that I'm trying to do. I'm your SEO guy. But what if we call this like organic marketing or non paid marketing. And then at that point, I think we can treat it like paid search where we are running campaigns. If we publish a blog post, and then you get whatever you get from Google,
Jon Clark (50:26.632)
Right.
Nick LeRoy (50:52.102)
and then it gets posted to Twitter, Facebook, oh every other social, and you get organic traffic. You send in your email blast, they come back. Your paid search team is now expanding the keywords that they can bid on. They get back and they get to cookie these people. Like, why is that CEO not getting any credit for this?
Jon Clark (51:10.226)
Yeah.
Joe DeVita (51:13.516)
We haven't, John and I have been talking about this for so long. it's almost like the SEO gets pigeonholed into the search. It's like, is a new name what we need? You earlier in this show, you said like, you made a comment about like, let's not get too worried about what we're calling things, but it's, it like, is it, does the title of, if you're an SEO specialist or whatever, does that pigeonhole you into larger conversations? I think it does a little bit. And, and
You know, we'll move to AI at some point because optimizing to AI is something we want to talk to you about, but are we really just optimizing for free traffic? Like, is that what we're, we're trying to bring in like relevant, but, free traffic.
Nick LeRoy (51:59.390)
So Joe, I love that you said that and I'm gonna be a little vulnerable here. At the beginning of the year, I was pretty down and out on SEO. Like it's the first time in my 15 year career where I was legitimately just taking a second and wondering like, is my skill set gonna be relevant and valuable in five years? And I know we've all heard the SEO is dead and it's dying and it's like, that's not even what I'm talking about. It's just like legitimately.
Let's take what I want it to be versus the direction it's going. And I firmly believe, because now I've kind of adopted this approach, like it's not that it's going away. It is a constant evolution, but I've been iterating many, many, many times on this one and many other podcasts that SEO will die if we are only measuring it exclusively from the organic channel.
Just to be clear sorry when I say organic search channel. You know I keep thinking in my head default channel drop-down organic I Think we need to do a better job of understanding all these great efforts that we're doing and I always for the longest time referred to it as the halo effect And I know we all talk about it. It's this Unquantifiable you know halo effect and we need to do a better job and again the post will be live before this goes live
but that is the SEO for lunch that I'm writing today. Is that attribution screws SEOs, but that shouldn't stop us from guessing, getting directional information because you know what CEOs don't act on and they don't invest? Trust me, bro. m
Because they don't care about that because our paid media friends are coming back and they're saying you already spent a million dollars But I'm getting you four to one return and I think we can scale to five million and the CEO goes where can I take this money? Oh, you're investing 500 grand in SEO for trust me, bro. Halo effect You did this is best practices I'm an SEO, but I'd the first one as a business owner again. We go back to that
Jon Clark (53:50.133)
Right.
Jon Clark (54:5.936)
Right.
Nick LeRoy (54:17.384)
Because what do they say like, CMOs or CEOs, like they have like an average lifespan at a job like two years. SEO is not the channel that they're going to back because it takes that long. So again, there is what is right and where you should invest long term. But then there's politics and the economy and the nobody to my knowledge has figured out the infinite money glitch.
Joe DeVita (54:24.376)
Yep.
Jon Clark (54:24.455)
Yeah, exactly.
Nick LeRoy (54:46.824)
Let me know if you have. So sorry, I don't know where I was going with this. yeah, I just think it goes back to what you guys were saying, though. It's I think we need to have a better idea of just what is the impact of the work that we're doing. And historically, we all did a really good job of justifying it from one channel exclusively. And I think we need to go back. And it's not necessarily a Rob Peter to pay Paul.
Jon Clark (54:48.764)
Ha ha ha.
Joe DeVita (54:52.420)
We can go a lot of different ways.
Jon Clark (54:54.513)
Yeah.
Nick LeRoy (55:15.476)
because that's what a lot of this is. But let paid search continue to have the victory, but quantify the assist. That's probably the best thing. It's like we hear about the assist metric in various sports. We don't talk about assists in marketing.
Jon Clark (55:25.915)
Exactly.
Jon Clark (55:35.868)
Yeah, that's right. It goes back to the common problem with the silos, right? And there's so many opportunities to combine those things together into a more holistic strategy that lists everything, right? We're sort of having those two things work together. um So I know we're uh almost at our time here. So I'd love to get your thoughts on just... uh
You probably alluded to it a little bit, but you know, how you see AI impacting uh our industry moving forward. think you had some great thoughts around what 2026 is going to look like from a service provider perspective and being upfront and ethical about that. But, you know, what are the realities of what you're seeing?
Nick LeRoy (56:26.612)
All right, some more spicy takes here because there's kind of two ends of it. There's the SEO in me that wants to think that AI overviews are gonna shut down because they're not valuable or there's gonna be the legislator is gonna say it's illegal monopoly. Like that's what I want to hear. We both know that's not gonna happen. Like the three of us just know that it's evolving.
What I do think, and a lot of people don't like hearing this because as we know, people are being let go left and right across the whole tech sector. But my spicy take here, and I mean this more than anything unfortunately, is the barrier to entry into SEO specifically has always been incredibly low. You don't need a degree, you don't need a fancy computer, you don't need to code.
Like you need an internet connection, a computer, and like the ability to sell at some level. And what that has always done in our industry is divide those that can provide good services and positive returns on the investment versus those that I'm calling the like the get rich quick Bitcoin bro bros. And I think as a result, historically,
having a really good SOP and then hiring like cheap labor or cheaper labor was a really good way to make a million dollars in revenue. Like, I don't want to say it's not hard because that completely discounts people's work. But it wasn't. It's not hard. I think the reality is now a lot of those SOPs were what I refer to as checkbox SEO, you know, we're doing our on page optimizations.
You get your four blog posts and if you are a physical presence, we do your local SEO. And that between all of those checkbox items used to provide enough value to justify a thousand dollar retainer. $2,000 maybe, you know, but now it's not. And what's going to happen, and this is the spicy part that I truly believe in. I think we are going to all be held accountable.
Nick LeRoy (58:48.488)
So these individuals who aren't passionate and understand and keeping up to date with the industry aren't going to be able to pivot into the strategies that it takes to succeed. Companies are going to leave them for that reason. And these individuals that the whole point they're into SEO was to make quick money. They're going to leave the industry. And I am telling a lot of people that I think 2025 is the year to kind of like buckle up and survive.
doing the best work you can for the contracts that you have because new work is hard to get right now. But if we can thin out this agency or sorry, this industry a little bit by getting those people that were masking their value add or just charging such a small amount that, you know, people weren't looking at it. If we can get a chunk of those to leave in 2026, I think that those are that is kind of like the cream that floats to the top.
Jon Clark (59:24.232)
Mm-hmm.
Nick LeRoy (59:47.996)
are going to be able to thrive even more into the future. In conjunction with everything else we said, it's not about the checkbox all of a working in 2026.
Jon Clark (59:52.342)
Yeah, we've been
Jon Clark (59:58.364)
Yeah, we've been thinking about that a lot. mean, there's, you know, when you come into these tough economic environments or, you know, AI driven environments, there's an opportunity to sort of, um, clear, clear out some of the nefarious stuff that's happening. And those that can survive are going to be in a much better place because there will be that demand for that work at some point. And
the total number of choices will be smaller. Well, listen, Nick, this has been incredible. I really enjoyed the conversation, and it was great to actually be able to sit down with you. Again, been following you for a long time, so this was really a pleasure. ah So thanks so much, and we'll make sure to add some links to the show notes. So if you want to let folks know where they can find you, that'd be awesome.
Nick LeRoy (60:53.566)
Yeah, Joe and John, thank you so much for the invite. This has been an awesome conversation. oh Anybody who's interested in more of my spicy takes should definitely go check out seoforlunch.com. That's the best way to read some of my previous newsletters, including the one that will now have been published in rears on uh attribution, but sign up for the newsletter. Otherwise, I'm probably most active on LinkedIn.
So if you just go into LinkedIn, type in Nick Leroy, you'll find me or go into that good old Google. I don't think they have an AI overview yet for Nick Leroy LinkedIn, but no promises by the time this goes live. Let's say, let's give it a shot. But yeah, no, I'd love to connect and just like we have with you guys, I love bantering about the industry. We got to get creative.
Jon Clark (61:32.399)
It's coming.
Jon Clark (61:45.576)
That's right. All right. Take care.
Joe DeVita (61:46.328)
Thank you so much, Nick.
Nick LeRoy (61:47.656)
Thank you.